Sunday, July 5, 2009

Discussion on evolution, part 2

I am starting this post because I felt the comments on the previous one were too bulky (I'll probably do this when this post gets past 200 comments). This post is a response to 28 consecutive comments, and will be of interest to no one else besides aintnuthin. The content is below the fold.
aintnuthin, did you just return to the JazzFanz as aintsheeit? If so, you should know the account has been banned for a) being an obvious duplicate account (whether of yours or someone else's) and b) profanity filter avoidance in the username.

One Brow said: "Nor am I aware of any serious theoretical problems with the Theory of Evolution."

Which begs the entire question, i.e., what is THE theory of evolution in your view? The hypothesis of common descent?

If you are aware of no serious theoretical problems, maybe it's because you pay little or no attention to the proliferation of inconsistent views generated by different evolutionary theorists
.

The inconsistent views are over the parts that people can't demonstrate and don't know how to test. It's all a great deal of fun, but not part of the Theory.

I get the feeling that for you, personally, THE theory is selected from items like a chinese menu. You take one from column A, one from B, one from C, etc., as each is most appealing to your personal tastes. The meal which is then served is, for you, THE dish served by that restaurant.

As long as "appealing to my tastes" is a metaphor for "having been validated by experiment", and "take one" is a metaphor for "accept every proved result", pretty much. I have no problem with a theory being messy.

I'm not sure how you get from "especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena," to your flat assertion that: "A theory is not really a theory until is has been confirmed."

Well, from "especially", I interpreted it to mean that the prototype of a theory is the one that has been confirmed (and by confirmed, as you should be aware by now, I do mean having generated predictions that have survived actual tests). The "especially", to me, said that this is when the usage is most appropriate, and that the word theory was somewhat less accurate if the predictions and verification had not been performed. Not to mention, he definition was not limited to scientific usage. Usually, scientists are more careful about calling something a theory that the general public. Do you disagree with the interpretations of either "especially" or "confirmed"?

Also, you seemed to bypass completely the difference between 1) as a theory for epistemological activities and 3) for formal systems. Did you feel my criticism of your use of 3) to apply to 1) was apt or off-base?

I don't agree with your conclusory assertion at all, and I don't see why you think the dictionary defintion you use supports it. Since it says "especially" ones which are widely accepted, etc., it implies that the definition is not limited to those in particular. If you are tryin to make some semantic hierarchial distinction between "hypotheses," "theories," and "laws," or sumthin OK, but I wasn't tryin to git that refined about it. To me a "hypothesis" is a theory because it is theoretical in it's basic nature, and can make testable predictions even if those predictions have yet to be tested. But if you are using a highly refined sense of the word "theory" we can go with that. Again, the question is what (which) hypotheses, of all those which have been offered over the years on the subject of evolution, is/are THE theory of evolution?

Many different hypotheses have been confirmed over the years in many different ways. They are all part of the Theory of Evolution, and I could write a book out of just listing the proved hypotheses and taking a paragraph or two to explain each one. Some of these hypotheses include descent with modification, the unity of life, the various mechanism involved, the adaptations of bacteria to various sorts of antibiotics, common descent, the pattern of geological radiation of populations, etc.

So, then, would you say that geocentricism, heliocentrism, and jupitercentrism are all equally compatible with the "Theory of planetary motion?" If they are "equally compatible" are they all the same theory, despite wildly different initial premises?

To my understanding, using either geocentrism or jupitercentrism would require massive inputs of energy into the system from sources unknown and unseen, to force the Sun to orbit these bodies under the Theory of Planetary Motion. So I would say that, to the degree that heliocentrism/jupitercentrism make predictions regarding why the Sun orbits the earth/Jupiter, its predictions fail, it is not compatible with the current theory.

Now, if you come up with a different example that does produce identical predictions, like various incarnations of string theory (according to my understanding), then I would say none of them are part of the theory, but all are compatible with it.

One Brow said: "It's an older book."

It's 21st century (2001 edition, accordin to Vallicella)
.

My error. I did not realize Mayr was alive for that long. However, since he was in his 90s when that book was written, it is understandable that it would not reflect the most modern understanding of evolutionary theory at the time of writing. In any case, strict genetic determinism is certainly older thinking.

If the new information contradicts a central claim of the pre-existing theory, does that contradiction automatically generate a brand new, widely accepted and thoroughly tested, theory, as you see it?

That's the first step in the process. You have to verify those observations, come up with new explanations for those observations, incorporate those explanations in a systemic way, and test the new system to get a revised theory.

One Brow said: "You think so? Perhaps you can quote a few texts penned within the last five years or so that agree?"

Well, Eric, why not ask for ones in the last 5 days? Those would be more likely to reflect THE theory of evolution, doncha figure?

How about quotes like this from a 1998 publication by the NAS entitled "Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science?"
:

You are defending a claim about textbooks by quoting book of under 150 pages?

"...selection can work only on the genetic variation that already is present in any new generation, and genetic variation occurs randomly, not in response to the needs of a population or organism." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5787&page=16

Note the breezy, strictly "a matter of fact," presentation of this claim. Note also that it purports to apply to any and all variation "present in any new generation.
"

When did "genetic variation" become "any and all variation"? When did evidence of non-random genetic variation (not regions where variation is more permitted, but the actual variation itself) appear?

This same publication approvingly cites another NAS publication which states that "Fossils found in rocks of increasing age attest to the interrelated lineage of living things, from the single-celled organisms that lived billions of years ago to Homo sapiens. The most recent fossils closely resemble the organisms alive today, whereas increasingly older fossils are progressively different, providing compelling evidence of change through time."

Note that this was in 1998, long after reputable scientists called attention to the fact that the fossil record essentially amounts to a disconfirmation of "interrelated lineage of living things," e. g.
"

The standard denailist tactics reappear. You're really better than this, on most topics most of the time. You don't even bother to try to show the quoted sentence is false, instead you bring in a range of quotes that have nothing to do with whether the sentence is true, with an apparent motive to cast doubt on fossil evidence generally.

1. "Species that were once thought to have turned into others have been found to overlap in time with these alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another." (Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 95)

How does a lack of confirmation of a species-to-species translation equate to a disconfirmation of the interrelated lineage?

2. "The majority of major groups appear suddenly in the rocks, with virtually no evidence of transition from their ancestors." (Futuyma, D., Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, 1983, p. 82)

How does the sudden appearance of some major groups equate to a disconfirmation of the interrelated lineage?

3. "In spite of these examples, it remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all new categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences." (Simpson, George Gaylord, The Major Features of Evolution, 1953, p. 360)

How does a lack of completeness in transitional sequences equate to a disconfirmation of the interrelated lineage?

4. The principle problem is morphological stasis. A theory is only as good as its predictions, and conventional neo-Darwinism, which claims to be a comprehensive explanation of evolutionary process, has failed to predict the widespread long-term morphological stasis now recognized as one of the most striking aspects of the fossil record." (Williamson, Peter G., "Morphological Stasis and Developmental Constraint: Real Problems for Neo-Darwinism," Nature, Vol. 294, 19 November 1981, p. 214)

How does morphological stasis equate to a disconfirmation of the interrelated lineage?

5. "But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition." (Woodroff, D.S., Science, vol. 208, 1980, p. 716)

How does a lack species-level translations equate to a disconfirmation of the interrelated lineage?

6. Darwin himself, ...prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search ...One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin's predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong. ...The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperor's new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin's predicted pattern, simply looked the other way." (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 45-46)

Actually, thousands of gaps were filled in. Eldredge is making an observation for punctuated equilibrium, not against the interrelated lineage.

A few more, just for good measure, eh? These relate mainly to your recurring claim that we should expect the fossil record to be incomplete:

1. "One of the most surprising negative results of paleontological research in the last century is that such transitional forms seem to be inordinately scarce. In Darwin's time this could perhaps be ascribed with some justification to the incompleteness of the paleontological record and to lack of knowledge, but with the enormous number of fossil species which have been discovered since then, other causes must be found for the almost complete absence of transitional forms." (Brouwer, A., "General Paleontology," [1959], Transl. Kaye R.H., Oliver & Boyd: Edinburgh & London, 1967, p. 162-163
)

Other causes have been discussed and explored.

2.There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways it has become almost unmanageably rich, and discovery is out-pacing integration. The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." (Neville, George, T., "Fossils in Evolutionary Perspective," Science Progress, vol. 48 January 1960, p. 1-3)

To be even close to complete, we would need some 100 complete vertebrate fossils for each vertebrate species (not to mention all the other types of living things).

3. "A persistent problem in evolutionary biology has been the absence of intermediate forms in the fossil record. Long term gradual transformations of single lineages are rare and generally involve simple size increase or trivial phenotypic effects. Typically, the record consists of successive ancestor-descendant lineages, morphologically invariant through time and unconnected by intermediates." (Williamson, P.G., Palaeontological Documentation of Speciation in Cenozoic )

Again a reference to the lack of species-level changes.

4. "In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation." (Ridley, Mark, "Who doubts evolution?" "New Scientist", vol. 90, 25 June 1981, p. 831)

Obviously wrong. Many evolutionists make such a claim. It makes me wonder what he was really trying to say.

"We have long known about stasis and abrupt appearance, but have chosen to fob it off upon an imperfect fossil record." (Gould, Stephen J., "The Paradox of the First Tier: An Agenda for Paleobiology," Paleobiology, 1985, p. 7)

Like, whooda thunk, I ax ya!?
)

*Yawn*. I am still waiting for some quote that addresses the interrelated lineage that fossils make evident.

With respect to the education about evolution of high school students, T. Ryan Gregory says:

...

Of course, it is these very "college graduates" (Alters) and biology majors with at least two years of undergraduate education (Gregory) who go on to teach the next generation of high school students, eh?


In schools with a reasonably large student base (let's say 800 students), the preference has been (in my experience) to hire biology teachers who took a full secondary biology education curriculum, which would have included a handful of upper-level courses. I think it would be much better if every single biology teacher had this background, but it's not always possible.

I don't see what this has to do with the content of textbooks on the subject.

Gould, after complaining about concessions to creationists in high school texts, go on to complain about a more serious problem:

This is from an essay that is pre-Edwards, referring to a 1983 textbook and the pre-Edwards texts generally.

According to that article: "The books critiqued are limited to 1991 editions of Biology I textbooks adopted by the state of Texas as listed under References.

Well, I sure hope no one is using that text anymore.

One Brow said: "By the way, I still have not heard an epistemological reason to call these variations non-random. When all of the experiments conducted show distribution's that are indistinguishable from being random, and there are no known mechanism for making the distribution non-random, then random is the only epistemological interpretation."

1. Your reference is to "these variations," whereas as my post was addressed to the source of variation (without limiting the question to a specific range of variation, such as "those which occur on the 3rd Sunday in each new millenium," or sumthin.


Variations can come from any number of sources, and I am not aware of sources that are inherently non-random within themselves. They are random with respect to the needs of the organism, as far as anyone can tell.

2. The literature is rife with examples which suggest that some variation is highly correlated to the needs of the organism with respect to, and are apparently generated by "interaction with," the environment. One such example I recall is of a certain type of insect that has several typical predators, one of which is the dragonfly. If dragonflies are present while the larva is still developing, the larva will be born with a certain color (say green) which makes it more likely to escape detection by dragonflies. If not, it will be born a different color, which provides more natural defense against other common predators.

So, if you don't feed a human food that has Vitamin C, they get scurvy? How does change the notion of random variation?

One Brow said: "When all of the experiments conducted show distributions that are indistinguishable from being random...

To begin with, I would interested in knowin how you came to be familiar with "all the experiments conducted," and just what the nature and methods of all experiments were.


You have mentioned yourself the work of James A. Shapiro, for example, wherein the mutations themselves seem to be randomly distributed within the high-mutation regions. I certainly don't claim to have read every paper on the subject. I'll happily revise my opinion when you provide a counter-example.

But let's leave that to the side. Randon mutation of DNA plays a central explicatory role in prevailing evolutionary theory, because it, and it alone, supposedly provides the "variation" which leads to hundreds of species (genera, phylum, or whatever) disversifying into thousands of species which diversify into millions of species, etc. But, as just noted, the fossil record does not seem to support such a notion, with long-term stasis of phenotype, rather than constant, continuous gradual changes to same, being what is found in the fossil record, and abrupt, rather than transitional, changes being the overwhelming norm.

That would be genetic variation, not all variation, and why is random genetic variation incompossible with long-term morphological stability?

The first answer, presumably from a "scientist," flatly states that: "The fact that chimpanzees and humans have different numbers of chromosomes immediately causes a reproductive barrier and would be an immediate speciation event."

Scientist or not, that's just wrong. Even today we can find humans with broken chromosomes (so they technically have more than 46), fused chromosomes, or a combination of the two, who mate and can pass this condition on their descendants

An "immediate speciation event," eh? How so, if the "speciation event occurred long before? And how, I wonder, would such a rare chromosome split thereafter become, by the process of natural selection, the ONLY type of chromosome structure found in humans?

Populationgenetics models do account for the occasional split/fusion becoming dominant and even exclusive over time, if it is one among many such events.

One last comment on the foregoing website. It is apparently a government-sponsered one for "K-12 educators," designed in part to provide answers to high school students. It identifies itself as follows: "NEWTON is an electronic community for Science, Math, and Computer Science K-12 Educators.
Argonne National Laboratory, Division of Educational Programs, Harold Myron, Ph.D., Division Director."

It appears that the answer a high school student gets to such questions is highly dependent on the "educator" who responds.


If you have recommendations for improving the quality of educators in high school science, that would be great to try to put into action, but seems to be off-topic here.

Eric, I kinda been waitin for you to go wild with a "quote-mining" charge, ya know?

Let's talk about "quote-mining" and the allegations thereof, for a second, whaddaya say?
...

This quote does not represent any purported "refutation" of Ridley's point, it IS Ridley's point (about use of the fossil record)
.

Since Ridley's point is that there are better reasons to accept evolution than the fossil record, it would be a legitimate use to quote him in the context of the appropriateness of fossils, and not legitimate to quote him in a effort to claim special creation is better supported. So, anointed-one.net would still be quote-mining.

It's seems that the allegations of "quote-mining" often rely on the imputation of disingenous attempts to "imply" sumthin which "attempts" are created, whole cloth, by the accuser in order to create a strawman through which he can level at unwarranted and unsubstantiated charge of dishonesty.

It is dishonest to take criticisms of certain types of evolution, or quotes that bemoan the lack of a particular types of fossil, and portray them as general proclamations against fossil evidence generally.

Here the author of the quote-mining entry claims that the quote has been used in an attempt to "discredit evolution." Where does the evidence of that "attempt" come from? Ridley is sayin the fossil record aint where it's at if one wants to argue for evolution, and that's all he bein quoted as sayin. What's the problem?

Quoting Ridley without the caveat Ridley added makes unwary readers think Ridley's issue is with evolution generally, and not fossils specifically, and this is the sort of error quote-miners rely upon.

Mebbe we can quit beatin round the bush here, a little, eh, Eric? An article I cited above summarizes some views of Yale biologist Keith Thomson as follows:.

I can always rely on you to pull out anti-evolution denialists, such as ARN, from far and wide. I see no reason to treat this as being an accurate summary.

"[Thomson] indicates three commonly employed meanings of evolution:

1. Change over time
2. Relationships of organisms by descent through common ancestry
3. A particular explanatory mechanism for the pattern and process of (1.) and (2.), such as natural selection
.

Red flag: a biologist who says "evolution" means the same thing as "a mechanism of evolution"? Or, is the biologist critiquing some other work? Are you presenting a fourth-hand account (your quote of a summary of a critique of an original text), with a link to the third-hand account??

Thomson notes that factual patterns of change over time, particularly as seen in the fossil record, can be studied in the absence of theories of how these patterns came to be.

Didn't you just provide several quotes about how there were no factual patterns of change over time? No particular fossil changes, so there is no "factual change". However, the summarizer (which is quite possibly not an accurate reflection of Thomson) is willing to accept a certain amount of evolution (often described as "within kinds"), and so describes this amount of change as "factual".

Thomson also emphasizes that the second meaning, descent through common ancestry, is a hypothesis, not a fact, and that it is derived from the twin premises that life arose only once on Earth and that all life proceeds from preexisting life.

Actually, common descent is perfectly compatible with multiple origins of life, but Thomson may not have been familiar with the work of Woese, and once life becomes omnipresent on earth, there is no place for life to develop de novo. Also, descent through common ancestry as passed the hypothesis stage decades ago, it is now certainly theory. Either Thomson was speaking over a century ago, or this is editorializing on the part of the summarizer.

Cladistic analysis, championed currently by a number of biologists, has sought to eva1uate relationships among organisms without regard to the twin premises cited above. In regard to the third meaning, a particular explanatory mechanism, there are currently many alternative hypotheses. Darwin insisted that changes had to be small and gradual. However, Gould and his associates (1980) have proposed static intervals (stasis), followed by periods of rapid change (punctuated equilibrium).

You would think Thomson would be aware that the the changes in punctuated equilibrium are small and gradual, except when compared to neo-Darwinism.

The authors then state that:

Is this supposed to be Thomson, or the posters on ARN?

The biology texts, in general, do a poor job of distinguishing between these three different meanings of evolution. They generally fail to note that it is possible to accept the factual evidence for change over time, while having a more restricted view of descent through common ancestry. For example, to speak of ancestral descent in regard to the relationship of an ancestral horse to a modern horse would be a very restricted use when compared to the relationship of an ancestral one-celled organism to a modern mammal. Likewise, accepting the factual evidence for change over time does not require the acceptance of a particular explanatory mechanism for these changes.

It is possible to accept every part of the water cycle, except that you believe evaporation water is being skimmed by angels, and rain is caused by God, with no connection between the various molecules involved. After all, the water cycle is only a theory. Just because a position is possible does not make that position reasonable nor scientific.

On another level, many scientists prefer to differentiate between microevolution and macroevolution: the former being the relatively small changes noted in the diversification of species, and the latter being the changes required in the development of new phyla, or possibly of new orders or classes. The term macroevolution has also been used in regard to development of new functions, such as vision or hearing..

Mostly, this terminology is preferred by anti-evolutionary scientists or by people responding to them.

Many proponents of Darwinian natural selection have argued that processes demonstrated for microevolution may be extrapolated to account for macroevolution as well. When this type of extrapolation is used in an attempt to validate a theory, we have moved beyond the reasonable bounds of science. Scientifically, we should simply state that at present, there is no satisfactory scientific explanation for macroevolutionary events. Those explanations that have been presented lie in the realm of philosophy.".

Gosh, an anti-evolutionist thinks we should state there is no scientifically supported explanation? Que surprise!

These observations strike me as sound. (1) is a simple fact, (2) is a hypothesis, one which entails certain (unproven) assumptions, and only with (3) do we enter into the realm of "theory.".

Except, (1), which is a fact and a theory, is supported by the exact same evidence as (2), which is also a fact and a theory, and (3) seems like wither a confusion or a distortion.

Of course not all which parades as "theory" is actually scientific in nature. The attempt to "validate" by projected extrapolation, rather than empirical evidence, is not, in itself, a "scientific" form of validation. It may be part of the theory, which I claim is independent from empirical validation, but it is not any kind of "evidence.".

Duh. It is the verification of the extrapolation that either raises the hypothesis to the level of theory of sweeps it to the dustbin of science.

Do you have any major disagreement with Thomson's summary? Are you using the term "theory" in the same sense Thomson does, or are you perhaps calling (1) and/or (2) THE theory?.

I would not presume to agree or disagree with Thomson based upon a quote of a summary of Thomson.

With regard to the issue of how much ideology is an inherent part of "evolutionary theory," I found the following report interesting. I am taking it as accurate:

"...in 1995 the NABT issued the following statement: ... On the last day of the October 8-11, 1997 annual NABT meeting, the board met again and voted to remove the two objectionable words, "unsupervised" and "impersonal"...
.

Good to know it was removed. The words don't belong in government-run schools.

But most prominent evolutionary biologists do not see the blind watchmaker thesis (as defined above) as an optional ideological add-on to neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory. Rather, they see it as a central part of the propositional content of neo-Darwinian theory, as indeed Darwin himself did. .

Perhaps they just have not sufficiently considered the difference between their ontological and epistemological equivalents.

Is their a side on this matter which you agree with, Eric? Should the two words have remained? Is Pigliucci right that "NABT’s two-word alteration to the definition of evolution betrays the core...?".

While I think those words are accurate, I think you can find better ways to describe the concepts that only refer to epistemological concepts, possibly replacing "unsupervised" with "without apparent direction" and "impersonal" with "with no detectable outside influence".

Does it imply anything to you about how high school biology teachers may generally approach the teaching of evolution ...

Since some biology teachers are young-earth creationists, I don't draw any general conclusions from the statement of the NABT.

It seems that the website with Pigliucci's "open letter" to the National Association of Biology Teachers is no longer functional. A few excerpts appear here, though: .

Thiswould be the plea the NABT decided to reject?

Eric, you often suggest that you believe most, if not all, opposition to neo-darwinism is motivated by religious motivations. At the same time, you deny that "scientists" (with the exception of a few, like Dawkins) have any ideological agenda..

Since neo-Darwinism is dead, and was opposed by many scientists even when it was thought to be viable, this is plainly false, and seems worded to again attempt to intertwine neo-Darwinism with modern evolutionary theory.

I think this letter (apparently signed by a number of high profile "scientists")and the position of the high school biology teachers
indicates otherwise. While they may confess that naturalistic fundamentalism is "philosophy," that doesn't temper their certainty that is is ontologoically correct in the least.
.

Most philosophers, and most people, accept some unproven ontological truths as correct.

I have come to view both theism and atheism as equally "religious" doctrines. What's ironic about it is that the atheists come out looking worse than those they oppose in this view. This look like total hypocrites with little or insight or thoughtfulness because they deny their religious faith, and accuse their opponents of being "soft-minded" and "stupid" for openly admitting their religious faith..

Some forms of atheism make no ontological claim and require no faith, other forms do. Either way, they don't fit the term "religion". It is true there are fuzzy-headed atheists,both of the type that make no claims and of the type that do.

I did find the contents of Pigliucci's open letter after lookin a little more:.

I see no reason to care.

I am still unable to give meaning to your dual assertions that (1) Life could have independently arisen on earth a million times without in any way contradicting premise 1 from above, .

I feel it is unfortunate that, after all your efforts to quote Woese, et. al., you still retain this blind spot.

and (2) that anyone who even questions the the "factual" status of the doctrine of common descent is a "denialist.".

Denialism is a matter of tactics, not topic. Not everyone who questions common descent is a denialist (I used to question common descent, but I never used the tactics of denialism to do so, and changed my opinion after a careful examination of the evidence).

According to the NEScent website, this "workshop for educators" is "designed to provide an overview of key evolutionary concepts and explore cutting-edge topics in evolutionary biology for instructors at the high school and introductory college level."

http://www.nescent.org/eog/eognews.php?id=92

Cuttin edge, eh!? Sounds interestin, sho nuff! Like what, I wonder?
.

I'm not going to go through the various topics individually, because I think you are missing the point. It's not about cutting-edge topics in biology, for the most part they don't even belong in introductory biology courses. It's about cutting-edge topics in biology education. I've been to math seminars that discussed cutting-edge ideas in mathematics. I assure, it was not the mathematics that was novel.

Arlin Stoltz, a research biologist in working in the CAMEL (Computational and Analyitical Molecular Evolution) lab at CARB (Center for Advanced Research in Biotechnology)

Is this supposed to be Arlin Stolzfus?

does a good job of articulating some of my general thoughts about both theory and the neo-darwinistic axiom of random mutation as the source of genetic variation, eh, Eric?

With respect to theory, he says, for example:

"Sometimes one hears the claim that, in science, "theory" refers to hypotheses that have been repeatedly confirmed and that are widely accepted by the scientific community, but (not to put too fine a point on it) this is a ridiculous position. One only hears of this interpretation of "theory" in discussions of evolution,


Actually, I've read a couple of similar discussion about string theory. Stolzfus seems to be ignorant of the general dispute on what is a theory.

Elsewhere he claims, with respect to the importance of variation to any evolutionary theory, that:

...

"Contempory discord" with "competing views," eh?


This is inevitable in science.

A "yet to be named" new view which abandons neo-darwinistic assumptions and acknowledges "non-randomness in evolution," eh?

Highly unlikely. For one thing, non-randomness was an essential component of many of the mechanisms in neo-Darwinism.

Is this now THE Theory of Evoluton, I wonder? If so, I wonder when they will tell the high school teachers, ya know?

Pretty much the same thing as always.

230 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 230 of 230
Anonymous said...

One Brow said:

"Both of those articles talk about the importance of explanations to a theory. Newton had a Law of Gravity, but no theory."

Well, apparently you didn't read them very closely (or else just read them with a pre-formed conclusion in mind, which was unshakable. "Explanation" (whatever that is) is the sine qua non of a theory. Mebbe this article is more direct, eh?

"A scientific theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon.[4]

A scientific theory is a deductive theory, in that, its content is based on some formal system of logic and that some of its elementary theorems are taken as axioms. In a deductive theory, any sentence which is a logical consequence of one or more of the axioms is also a sentence of that theory.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Anonymous said...

One Brow said:

"Both of those articles talk about the importance of explanations to a theory. Newton had a Law of Gravity, but no theory."

You may have got some sense of what they "talk" about, Eric, but you could not have reflected much on the content. Once again your penchant for "proving" you claims by mere assertion manifests itself. Explanation (whatever that is, or is taken to be) is the sine qua non of a theory.

Perhaps this article is a little more direct, eh?:

"A scientific theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon.[1]

A scientific theory is a deductive theory, in that, its content is based on some formal system of logic and that some of its elementary theorems are taken as axioms. In a deductive theory, any sentence which is a logical consequence of one or more of the axioms is also a sentence of that theory.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Anonymous said...

Oops...I guess we hit 200 again. I thought that first post got lost, so I rewrote it. They essentially say the same thing, although I did cite different wiki articles, one for "theory" and one for "scientific theory."

Anonymous said...

Heh, I notice this in the wiki article on "theory.'

"In pedagogical contexts or in official pronouncements by official organizations of scientists a definition such as the following may be promulgated.

According to the United States National Academy of Sciences: Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory."

This causes the theory/non-theory distinction to much more closely follow the distinctions useful for consumers of science (e.g. should I believe something or not?)

What this article calls "pedagogical" is more what I would call absurd brainwashing. This is definitely a thoroughly unique and unprecedented way to define "scientific theory," to say the least/

Like I said before, I can only shake my head at what is bein done in the name of "scientific education."

Anonymous said...

Heh, I forgot to include this gem from the NAS:

"Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe..."

"Real world?" "Factual explanation?" And you claim that only "methodology," and not "ontology," is involved here?

I also note that this claim is made with specific reference to the "theory or biological evolution." They have now turned "theory" into fact, eh?

Anonymous said...

This is really just incredible, ya know? Anyone with the least bit of sophisication with respect to the philosophy of science, or even used the least bit of critcal thought, would see the NAS claims as completely over the top on the propaganda scale.

An explantion becomes a theory when "no new evidence is likely to alter" it, at which point it is a "factual explanation" which serves as a "reliable account of the real world."

Simply incredible that NAS would promulgate that view. Are they actually retarded, I wonder?

Anonymous said...

One Brow said: "I don't see anything in this quote that equates to "unfortunate and misleading". I'm sure you had anopther quote in mind."

Then you are just as blind as every other devoted apologist I ever ran into, I guess. No doubt you missed the word "sadly." If you can't see where it was misleading (suggesting that development was irrelevant to evolution) then I really don't think there's anything you could see, unless mebbe you wanted to, ya know?

Anonymous said...

One Brow said: "of the various ways mutations are known to happen, none of them take the actual needs of the organism into account."

This appears to be claim of fact, eh, Eric? Or do you say that strictly as a "methodist," with no ontological intentions at all? If the latter, you might want to study the english language a little more, because that sho nuff aint the meaning you're conveying.

Anonymous said...

One Brow said: "I don't think he would argue that statement even after acknowledging the importance of development, for which he used the term "selected through their effect on development", as opposed to varying because of their development."

He might or might not argue it, I don't know (but, first, remember that Mayr is not Maynard Smith). I get the feeling that both you, Mayr, and possibly Maynard Smith are confusing genes with some kinda physical objects, as opposed to simply "packets of information," as they seen by George C. Williams (who is highly praised by Dawkins, Gould, Elridge, Maynard Smith (via Eldrige) and others here: http://www.edge.org/documents/ThirdCulture/h-Ch.1.html

As noted by Magulis, "The neo-Darwinists say that variation originates from random mutation, defining mutation as any genetic change." The close association, if not virtual identity, that the neo-darwinists once tried to make between "genes" and dna has vanished, but many still seem to think in those terms.

If "genes" are simply the message, irrespective of the medium; if, indeed, genes are ONLY information, then certainly the "epigentic" means by which regulatory genes "choose" to express the dna is at bottom a form of "genetic mutation." This would seems to imply that, in Williams' view, genes vary "because of their development," to use your words.

Anonymous said...

To elaborate on what Williams sees as an absolutely indispenable prerequisite to clear thought about evolution, let me quote him directly:

"The gene is a package of information, not an object. The pattern of base pairs in a DNA molecule specifies the gene. But the DNA molecule is the medium, it's not the message. Maintaining this distinction between the medium and the message is absolutely indispensable to clarity of thought about evolution...

[Dawkins]was misled by the fact that genes are always identified with DNA. Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter...These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term "reductionism." You can speak of galaxies and particles of dust in the same terms, because they both have mass and charge and length and width. You can't do that with information and matter."

Same cite as before, eh?

Anonymous said...

I said: We have already agreed that the notion of "random mutation" is at bottom a metaphyisical one that cannot be proved or disproved. So why is not neo-darwinism, like ID theory, untestable and hence "not scientific," I wonder.

You responded: We did? I must have been off my feed that day/week/month

Musta been, yeah. This is was you said on April 27: Me: You repeatedly say that all heritable genetic variation has been shown to be random.
You: I certainly hope I have not, because such a statement would be unprovable

April 28: You: "As we have agreed (I think), there is no known test for randomness/design per se.

Your current (and former) ongoing assertions that the "randomness" of mutations can be, and has been, confirmed, seems to relax on occasion, such as on May 3 when you said: "Even if Dawkins is uncomfortable with it, adaptive mutation (which is not classical Lamarckism by any means) happens, and we know this because we have tested mechanisms to demonstrate it."

Are "adaptive mutations" consistent with the claim that all mutations are random? Doesn't seem to be.

Ya know, going through some of these old posts, I realize that you must, as is typical, I guess, have entirely different definitions for "ontological" and "epistemological" than I do. I really can't make a lick of sense of a statement like this: "Neo-Darwinism is dead, remember? Even when it was alive, the biological version relied on epistomological randomness, specifically of the type where mutations are not controlled by the organsim, not ontological randomness."

This all gets quite tedious, eh, Eric? The question was this: "So why is not neo-darwinism, like ID theory, untestable and hence "not scientific," I wonder."

Do you have a direct answer to that question, or not?

Is your answer that neo-darwinism makes no claims about reality? If so, does ID make claims about reality, or is such a hypothesis merely "methodological." If they are different in this respect, HOW are they different. You seem to agree that it is not in the "testability" of the two, insofar as their basic premises go.

Anonymous said...

Maynard Smith (I think it was) said that, despite the multiplicity of labels, there are really only two basic types of evolutionary theory, i.e., darwinism and lamarckism.

It seems obvious that both views feel compelled to deny that all evolution is (was) random, sensing intuitively that would be prohibitively improbable. Both insist that evolution is NOT random, but disagree on the reasons why this is so. Philosophically speaking, these two viewpoints, as they relate to living matter, seem come down to "vitalism" vs. "materialism."

1. Vitalism: (a) a doctrine that the processes of life are not explicable by the laws of physics and chemistry alone and that life is in some part self-determining. (b) a doctrine that the functions of a living organism are due to a vital principle distinct from biochemical reactions.

2. Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/materialism

Any theory (such as ID, but including many others) of evolution which posits any kind of "directionality," purpose, intelligence, self-direction, etc. as a factor "guiding" evolution is basically a lamarckian or vitalistic one if Maynard Smith's simplificaton is correct.

Any theory (Such as darwinism, but including many others) which denies the existence of any purpose, direction, intelligence, etc. as a guiding factor is a materialistic one.

Both views are fundamentally metaphysical, and they fundamentally oppose each other with respect to the affirmation or denial of the claim that "matter in motion" is the one and only ultimate reality.

One or the other may be right, but presumably not both. It would seem that neither is logically impossible or susceptible to ultimate proof or disproof.

As I have said before, this difference is completely independent of any chosen methodology. Both can use a employ a "naturalistic" or "supernatualistic" methodology. Indeed, much talk by evolutionists about natural selection is phrased in language which implies purposeful activity by an active "agent." As someone (I forget who) said, "Mother Nature" is no more or less "supernaturalistic" than is "God."

As the ID theorists have noted, many "sciences" use the inference of design to explain phenomena, with the point being that such inferences are not inherently "unscientific" or based in mysticism. Dawkins, and indeed most biologists, freely acknowledge the existence of a phethora of phenomena that tempt (require, almost) one to explain by inferring some design.

It is in no means self-evident that such inferences are "unreasonable" or "unscientific" unless one merely defines them as such. One can, for example, say: "I define any inference of design to be both unreasonable and unscientific." But, of course, definitions are arbitrary, and do not dictate the reality of the matter.

Anonymous said...

Again, as I have said before, I can assume (or infer) that an object has been designed without that assumption in any way affecting the way I try to analyze it or explain it. Such an assumption may assist my investigation, but it does not change my methodolgy. If I know nothing about the workings of machines motivated by internal combustion engines, for example, I still will not "understand" one until I know how all the parts interact with each other and what function they serve, which requires investigation (for me). I do not purport to "explain" anything by simply saying: "this machine was designed." Science is ultimately about explanations, not metaphyscial presumptions, although the latter may inform the former. An assumption of "vitalism" would not change that. We would never have, or even be expected to, explain the ultimate nature of the "vital force" to simply investigate the phenomena.

The trillions of cells in the human body, and their constituent components, do in fact "serve purposes" in highly complex ways that we do not even begin to fully understand. If, at the outset, I start with the presumption that "all reality is simply mindless matter in motion" then I must conclude that all phenomena, all understanding thereof, and all explanations therefor, must result from and be reducible to mindless matter in motion.

But we could not even begin to formulate such notions as materialism or vitalism if we did not ourselves have some form of "intelligence." We are living proof that there is intelligence in nature and that "natural things" (like us) can have intentions, purposes, and the capacity to both conceive of designs and also thereafter implement the ends previously designed.

The point I'm making is this: Whether one ultimately believes in or presupposes vitalism (lamarckism in evolutionary terms) or materialsim (darwinism) has nothing to do with science as such. The vociferious outcry that materialism must be taught as an underlying presupposition, but that any notion of vitalism cannot even be discussed as an alternative presupposition, is not "scientific" either.

Lamarckism, whether true or not, whether ever irrefutably demonstrated or not, is NOT off limits to either scientific investigation nor is it inherently outside the realm of "scientific thinking." Of course, neo-darwinists have always thought otherwise, but, still....

Anonymous said...

Edit: I said: "Maynard Smith (I think it was) said that, despite the multiplicity of labels, there are really only two basic types of evolutionary theory, i.e., darwinism and lamarckism."

On reflection, I think this is where he used "wiesmannism," as the basic contrast, not darwinism (although Weismann was, at that time, a fervent devotee of natural selection as the sole "driver" of evolutionary change.

Anonymous said...

One Brow said: "But the warping of space is a mechanism for the attrction of bodies. There is no more "spooky action at a distance", just local effects."

Heh, as if the "warping of space" isn't spooky? Seriously, what exactly is "space, and how can it "warp" as a practical matter? Of course, for Einstein, there is no "space" per se. Only space/time. Now, tell me, what is "space/time," apart from a verbalization of the mathematics involved (as was the Newtonian use of the concept of "attaction of matter to matter" to verbalize the mathematical relationship detected)?

Anonymous said...

It has occurred to me before that there are parallels between the Newtonian explanations and Einstein's.

Newtonians claimed gravity was a "force." If I'm not mistaken, it's still referred to as one of the four "fundamental forces."

But it had to be almost an "intelligent" force, with advanced powers of discernment. If you drop a baseball and a cannonball from a building they will hit the ground at the same time. But the cannon ball is much more massive, and should therefore require a stronger force to accelerate it just as rapidly as a baseball. How does gravity "know" just how much more force to apply to get them to always tie in "races" to the ground, I wonder?

Likewise, Einstein merely appropriated the curious, but theretofore seemingly meaningless, lorentz contractions to "explain" the observable fact that we always measure the speed of light to be the same, regardless of the relative motions of the sender and receiver. Somehow, light must be pretty smart to know just how to shrink distances, slow time, etc., just so it always appear to be consistent in its speed, eh?

Anonymous said...

More "pedagogical information," from the AAAS, eh?

"What is evolution? Evolution is a broad, well-tested description of how Earth's present-day life forms arose from common ancestors["description," eh?]...Evolution occurs in populations when heritable changes are passed from one generation to the next. Genetic variation, whether through random mutations or the gene shuffling that occurs during sexual reproduction, sets the stage for evolutionary change. That change is driven by forces such as natural selection, in which organisms with advantageous traits, such as color variations in insects that cloak some of them from predators, are better enabled to survive and pass their genes on to future generations.

Ultimately, evolution explains both small-scale changes within populations and large-scale changes in which new species diverge from a common ancestor over many generations."

Well, they pack all the theory in there, eh, and simply call the theory "evolution" which is "described," not hypothesized, interpreted, or deduced. Random mutation (why not just say "mutation," I wonder?--Why does "random" ALWAYS have to be inserted as a qualifying adjective?). Common descent, natural selection, macro-evolution = micro-evolution, the whole 10 yards.

I wonder if anyone who aint plumb stupid doubts any of this, eh? Lemme see here....

"Is there "evidence against" contemporary evolutionary theory? No.

Is there a growing body of scientists who doubt that evolution happened? No...Of the few scientists who criticize contemporary evolutionary theory, most do no research in the field, and so their opinions have little significance for scientists who do."

Well, there ya have it, then, eh? All wrapped up in a ribbon.

http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/evolution/qanda.shtml

Anonymous said...

From a NAS brochure opposing ID theory:

"Natural selection is the process by which some traits succeed and others fail in the environment where the organism lives... Scientists no longer question the basic facts of evolution as a process...The fossil record, DNA research, the evidence that species have common ancestors, and other findings add up to overwhelming evidence that evolution by natural selection is how life on Earth arose and became diverse."

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf

Hmm, where to even start trying to intrepret and assess this curious brochure, eh? Well, in passing, one might note that the last sentence quoted claims that "that evolution by natural selection is how life on Earth arose."

Does ANY scientist argue this? That life "arose" by natural selection? Natural selection requires the pre-existence of life to "select" from, don't it? Apparently the faith which NAS has in the "creative power" of natural selection is unbounded.

What you, Eric, have called a "mechanism," this brochure calls "process" [they say "Natural selection is the process by which some traits succeed and others fail..."], so let's use that as a substitute synonmyn is the next sentence, which would then read: "Scientists no longer question the basic facts of evolution as a mechanism."

So the "mechanism" (which Gould said was the theoretical part) is now a "basic fact," eh? T

No wonder that those exposed to evolutionary teaching have a very confused notion about the distinction between theory and fact, eh?

Anonymous said...

With respect to that last post, Eric, I would anticipate your response (if you made one) to the errors I have noted be along one or more of these lines--the alleged errors are:

1. Probably the result of hasty publishication and/or that the task was probably assigned to a menial clerk, who understood neither the philosophy or evolutionary theory.

2. Simply results of editing errors.

3. not true errors, all apperances to the contrary notwithstanding, because the same words have different meanings in different sentences.

4. insignificant, with the substance of the message being "true."

5. not the least bit misleading, even if erroeous

I might agree with you on 3, but, if so, those equivocations could hardly have been unintentional and not designed to be misleading.

This brochure is simply a shortened version of an entire book ["Science, Evolution, and Creationism" (2008)] and considerable effort must have been put into it's production by NAS. The authoring committee is composed of 15 academics from prestigious institutions from all over the country [including Robert Pennock, who has written several books, some over 1000 pages in lenth, defending neo-darwinism and attacking ID--he is also the one who wants to (disingenously, if you ask me) that the "naturalism" is science is strictly methodological].

The care and authority which went into this dubious publication makes it all the more appalling to a disintered observer.

Anonymous said...

Ironically, this brochure has the gall to say (addressing ID theory, of course): "Teaching
non-scientific concepts in science class will only confuse students about the processes,
nature, and limits of science."

The opposite is probably true. Perhaps teaching ID theory would be one way of unconfusing students who are exposed to such "non-scientific" concepts as are contained in this brochure and help them understand the true "nature and limits" of science.

Anonymous said...

This same brochure purports to explain what a scientific theory is, in much the same wording as I have already quoted from wiki, to wit"


"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena. A good example is the theory of gravity. After hundreds of
years of observation and experiment, the basic facts of gravity are understood. The theory of gravity is an explanation of those basic facts. Scientists then use the theory to make predictions about how gravity will function in different circumstances. Such predictions have been verified in countless experiments, further
confirming the theory. Evolution stands on an equally solid foundation of observation, experiment, and confirming evidence."

Hmmm, so what do we have here?

Well, first, that a "scientific theory" is an "explantion." Just any old explanation? Naw, apparently only those that "are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them." [In the entire history of science has there been a single case of such an explanation?]. As a side attribute, a scientific theory also allows us to make predictions, they say.

Do they have an example? Well, yeah, they have two, actually. " A good example is the theory of gravity." Hmm, and you say that Newton's explanation of "gravity" is simply a law, not a theory--I wonder who's right here, you, or them? Whichever, they say "Scientists then use the theory to make predictions about how gravity will function in different circumstances" (as Newtonians did for the "hundreds of years" this brochure brings up). Of course, you also keep saying that Einstein's relativistic view of Newton's mathematical formula was a mere "refinement" of Newton, so let's not quibble here, OK? (having made that request, I expect you to quibble, but I will wait and see about that).

Of course their second example is evolutionary theory: "Evolution stands on an equally solid foundation of observation, experiment, and confirming evidence." I mean, like, really now, is this a joke? Are they really trying to compare the predictive power and confirming evidence for "explanantions" advanced by evolutionary theory to that afforded by the strict mathematical formulaes used for gravity?

Only a straight-up chump would fall for that claim, I figure, but that's not to say I haven't found many darwinist cheerleaders swallowin it hook, line, and sinker.

NAS must indeed presume that their readers are chumps. It could be that, in most cases, at least, they are 100% right.

Anonymous said...

Read this brochure critically, Eric. Look at this sentence and then tell me that the "creationists" who said the term "evolution" was used in multiple, confusingly unspecified manners, are not worth trusting. "Evolution stands on an equally solid foundation of observation, experiment, and confirming evidence."

Didn't you claim that nobody would use the word "evolution" to mean the theoretical elements thereof in a teaching setting? Are you ready to retract that claim, I wonder? I mean, I've already demonstrated that the "scientists" at talkorigins so the same, haven't I.

The equivocal use of terms to "explain" the topic of evolution as used here is simply a method of misleading students into an extremely mushy, uncritical "understanding" of the theoretical issues, as I see it? Is it intentional? Well, either that, or totally incompetent, as far as "teaching" methods go.

Anonymous said...

Is it a "non-scientific," supernatural belief (like in the Frankenstein movies) that life can be created by "mad scientists," I wonder? Scientists have been doin abiogenesis experiments for decades, but is this "science?"

OF COURSE IT IS(!), according to the NAS: "For those who are studying the origin of life, the question is no longer whether life could have originated by chemical processes involving nonbiological components. The question instead has become which of many pathways might have been followed to produce the first cells." (Science and Creationism, 1999). The onliest question is how, not if, see? Any day now we might expect some "mad scientist" to create life in a test tube if NAS is right, I spoze.

Is "genetic engineering" some crazy psuedo-science, or can humans actually "engineer" genetic traits, ya figure? How about the SETI program which is seeking other intelligent life in the universe? Is this just some supernatural "pseudo-science" which is not based on naturalism? Or is it "natural" to think that other intelligent life is possible?

If you say that attempts to discover other intelligent life in the universe, to produce lab-created life from non-living chemicals, and to effectly "engineer" genes are all legitimate "natural," scientific pursuits, with no reason to predict failure, a priori, for such attempts, then where does that leave you?

On what basis could one rule out the possibility that the life on earth which we study was designed by highly advanced civilizations on other planets, then imported here? Why say that ID theory is "not science" if naturalistic processes could provide a basis for it, hmmmmm?

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the authors of these pedagogical brochures, which stress natural selection as the virtually proven theory of evolution (remember, it's not even a theory unless it is doubtful that any new evidence could alter it), are familiar with the works of Masatochi Nei who wrote, just for example, a research paper called "The new mutation theory of phenotypic evolution."

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/30/12235.abstract

According to the abstract of that paper, "It appears that the driving force of phenotypic evolution is mutation, and natural selection is of secondary importance." The mutationists were utterly refuted by the neo-darwinists in the 30's and 40's, weren't they? Evolution by neutral mutation aint even possible, ya know?

Futuyma states that "mutation is quite ineffective because of its low rate of occurrence, whereas even the slightest intensity of natural selection can bring about substantial change in a realistic amount of time."

Nei must be one of those "few" scientists who are critical of modern evolutionary theory and whose opinion holds little significance for scientists who do reseach, eh? After all, there is NO evidence against modern evolutionary theory (where natural selection drives evolution per the brochures in question), according to the AAAS.

Anonymous said...

"Standard evolutionary theory affords niche construction the sole status of product of evolution, but short-circuits its fundamental role in the evolutionary process. A complete understanding of the impact of niche construction in evolution requires an
Extended Evolutionary Theory...We
support this argument with empirical data, theoretical population genetics and conceptual models, and describe new research methods that could be employed to put it to the test"
http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

Despite the claims of empirical support, this is probably just another of those "few" critics who don't do research, ya know?

Anonymous said...

"Many philosophers of biology have come to believe that biological explanations involve appeals to mechanisms rather than laws...it is
unclear whether one can appeal to mechanisms in providing explanations of singular events (e.g.,
speciation or extinction events) that are causal consequences of chance or contingent occurrences" http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

Sumthin *special* about biological explanations, this guy seems to think, eh? Like, "that's all we got, cuz we aint got no more," mebbe? Hey, I thought this was like gravity! Zup wit dat?

Anonymous said...

"A decreased proportion of filled possible
configurations at levels of organization of increasing complexity is accompanied by an increasing difficulty to discover general patterns. This is the fundamental reason why we already have the well formulated 'Atomic Theory' but not yet a comparable 'Living Systems Theory.'"
http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

No "theory" because it's all just too complex, eh? Like, whooda thunk, I ax ya?

Anonymous said...

"...the actuality, and even possibility, of this synthesis [between evolution and development] is far from obvious given the severe differences between (1) macroevolution and mechanistic developmental biology, and (2) microevolutionary mathematical evolutionary genetics theory, including levels of selection theory. This is a tension whose roots can be seen already in DARWIN's and WEISMANN's work... Before the serious difficulties involved are resolved, no synthesis is actual, or even possible. There is no guarantee for such a resolution—intimations of a failed synthesis are real."
http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

What!? No synthesis? A possible failure? Where do these crackpots even come from, I wonder?

Anonymous said...

"...Niels Bohr expected that purposive and functional aspects of biological phenomena could not be made intelligible on a strictly mechanistic approach. BOHR envisioned an analysis employing teleological notions as basic explanatory concepts and predicted that mutually exclusive teleological and mechanistic approaches would be jointly necessary for an exhaustive understanding of life."

http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

This crackpot seems to be suggesting that Niels Bohr was some kinda idiot, eh? A teleological approach is necessary to understand life!? Not possible...he's tryin to make Bohr's look like some kinda IDer. Utterly slanderous, I tellya!

Anonymous said...

"I show how the best currently available descriptions of the principle of natural selection come at the too high cost of making evolutionary theory merely schematic (e.g., propensity view of fitness) or incapable of identifying real evolutionary processes (e.g., central tendencies account). I then provide
an argument to justify the rehabilitation of a design-problem view of fitness."

http://www.ishpssb.org/oldmeetings/2003/ishfinalprog2003.pdf

This guy is supposed to be from Duke U., but it sounds like he aint even read the NAS's brochure, ya know? Natural selection incapable of identifying real evolutionary processes!? A "design-problem view of fitness?" Sounds like some kinda crackpot IDer to me. I bet he doesn't even do research and that is opinion is of little significance to those who do, eh?

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 230 of 230   Newer› Newest»