I haven't had time to write the post I planned to be next. I'm teaching Calculus for the first time, and I am putting a huge amount of effort into it, compared to previous classes I have taught. It's one of those situations where I'm not sure I can measure up to what the class needs. Still, if they let me, I'll be teaching it again. Mental growth comes from mental struggles.
However, I heard yesterday that Jerry Sloan resigned. From what I can tell, he just doesn’t have the energy it takes to constantly herd young players into trusting in his system anymore, and that's not really anyone's fault. I first started rooting for the Jazz in the mid 90s, so it's been quite a time. I'll briefly ramble on about it below the fold. Next post, I'll get back to the topic of the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning.
Sloan has always had arguments with players, some much more publically, and just as prominent within the franchise, as Williams. Karl Malone certainly comes to mind, although their disagreements were not as well-documented as those with Ostertag. Sloan seems to have always relied on personal drive, energy, and force of will to keep players playing the system. For better or worse, these things fade as you get older.
Great players tend to have big personalities, and Williams is no exception. You can't expect a man like that, at that age, to just take direction. There will be battles of wills, unless the coach has no authority at all, or just lets the players do whatever they want. Ten years ago, Sloan probably would have been more than up for those battles. In that time, he's been widowed, remarried, and has a knee replaced. Rather than just hang on (ala Don Nelson), Sloan has decided that if he can't be the coach he wants to be, he'd rather not coach at all. I respect that.
I will miss Sloan. I'm going to keep watching, though. I was watching last night, when Kirilenko showed just how good he was by getting injured. I don't know if the Millers will let Corbin coach for 20 years, but it wouldn't surprise me. I'm curious to see if Corbin takes up Karl Malone on his offer to be an assistant coach (I'm sure he'd have a thing or two to show Jefferson). I'm still a Jazz fan, just a sadder one, at least for this season.
Saturday, February 12, 2011
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33 comments:
Sloan, he ROCKS, eh, Eric!?
Sad day, true dat. I guess only insiders know the details, but from what I heard, it seem it went down something like this:
Williams ignored a play called by Sloan and ran a different one that he thought would be more effective. That pissed Sloan off, if for no other reason than that it challenged his authority. I mean, even if Sloan agreed that Deron was "right" (i.e., that the play he ran was just as good, or better) Deron would still be wrong.
After the game, Sloan talked to KOC and wanted Williams fined or suspended for insubordination. KOC balked, and Sloan quit.
I'll probably post more on good ole Jer, later, just cause I love the guy.
I could have sworn that Williams has been calling his own plays at least part of the time for a couple of years now. I suppose it could have happened that way, but it doesn't quite ring true to me.
Most of the time, but not always. If Sloan wants something specific he calls the play. Probably in time-outs especially.
Why doesn't it ring true? It doesn't ring true to me that Sloan would sign an extension on a Monday, and suddenly quit a few days later, in the middle of the season. Sloan aint no quitter, but he has enough principle to voluntarily resign if he believes he doesn't have the full support of management.
He was tired of arguing with Williams, no doubt, but he wouldn't quit just because of that. He would just attempt to put an end to the arguing.
He didn't, for example, quit when Girichuck argued with him. He just told him to go sit on the end of the bench. When Chuck persisted, he told him to get his ass back to the lockerroom. And, of course, a few days later Chuck was gone.
For what it's worth, here's Williams' answer to the question of whether he broke plays (the question I've been wanting asked, and answered:
"You want to know what happened? … What it was, we have a play called 22. It starts on the left side of the floor. I told everybody, 'Let's try it on the right side of the floor.' That's it. [Sloan] got a little upset with me. That was it. It wasn't a big deal. That's why — we've had arguments before. It wasn't like … I've seen some — Greg Ostertag, man. I had him around his waist, running into the locker room. … If coach Sloan calls a play, I'm going to run it. If coach Sloan told me to jump over the — well, I probably couldn't. I did whatever coach Sloan said. Offensively, defensively. Sometimes we'd disagree on things and we'd have an argument. But I never broke plays, or he called something and I said, 'No, I'm not running that.' Never."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/51270722-62/sloan-think-lot-coach.html.csp
Well, there ya have it then, eh? On the one hand he says: "I never broke plays, or he called something and I said, 'No, I'm not running that.' Never."
One the other hand, he says: "I told everybody, 'Let's try it on the right side of the floor.' That's it. [Sloan] got a little upset with me. That was it. It wasn't a big deal. That's why — we've had arguments before."
Sloan was upset at whatever happened, that much seems clear.
I like Williams, and I'm glad to see this (which I assume is basically true): "If coach Sloan calls a play, I'm going to run it. If coach Sloan told me to jump over the — well, I probably couldn't. I did whatever coach Sloan said. Offensively, defensively. Sometimes we'd disagree on things and we'd have an argument. But I never broke plays..."
Also nice to see these comments from Williams:
" I still felt he was a great coach. He's been doing the same thing for 23 years. He hasn't changed. He hasn't changed who he is. He's been great for me as a player. I felt lucky to come into a situation like that, where I can play for a Hall of Fame coach in my first six years. I'm happy."
On whether he has any regrets about his relationship with Sloan: "Yeah. I wish we would've had a better one. I wish we would've talked more. I think we're a lot similar. I think that's why we bumped heads a lot. We were so similar. We wanted to win so badly. When things aren't going right — we're both stubborn. I think that cost us a lot in our relationship."
I saw an extended "homecoming" (at MSU) show last night with Magic Johnson being interviewed (and interacting with friends who joined in) for an hour or two last night.
Magic was asked about the (negative) fan reaction when he kinda a led a protest against new coach Paul Westhead in LA, who was soon fired. Magic said something like this:
"It was a terrible situation and I hated to complain about Westhead, but I felt it was my duty to do it as a team leader. We weren't playing our best and winning under his style."
Not sayin the situation is the same with Williams, but I do think that, just like Sloan, he has principles that he will stand up for. I think his arguments with Sloan were bad for the Jazz, but that doesn't mean he was indifferent to the consequences and/or that he wasn't trying to help the team by doing what he did.
I also saw Stockton say that he and Sloan got into a lot of arguments. Stockton says that is just to be expected, especially between a coach and a point guard who is supposed to be the "coach on the floor."
Very sorry to see Sloan go, but I now feel better about Williams' (imperfect) role in it. Again, I think that Sloan sensed that KOC wasn't as ready to discipline Williams as Sloan was--assuming that discipline was suggested by Sloan. Not sayin KOC even refused, but just didn't unhesitantly accede to whatever Sloan wanted. For Sloan, especially given that he was already weary of it all, that was probably enough to just quit.
Sloan has since said he didn't want to be a burden to the team. Some Jazzfan poster has an alleged quote from Sloan saying something like: "In Chicago, I started getting the feeling that I would soon be fired, and within a week I was. I got that same feeling here." Given his immense pride, I can see how Sloan might have felt that he was being undermined and lacking in support from management.
Moving on to the next development in the ongoing "changing the face of the Jazz" saga, is there any connection between the Sloan/Williams dispute and the Jazz "dumping" Williams?
I say yes, and no. I listened (in a half-assed way) to what both KOC and Miller said at their press conference and, despite their obvious intent to deny such a connection, they reveal it. Miller once again asserted, for example, that he would never let players override a coach, and seemed to think that was (in part) a relevant answer to a question about any supposed connection.
Bottom-line, I believe them when they say they were just too uncertain of Deron's intentions to predict an (possibly devasting) outcome if they passed up the trade offer. KOC said that he would get one sense (not direct, but by virtue of attitude, responses, etc.) from Williams after a win, and different one after a couple of losses, about whether he (Williams) was likely to stay.
If (and I only say that as an unknown "if") Williams hoped to gain leverage or influence by airing his dissatisfactions to management (when they asked, as KOC indicates was the case), it seems he accomplished the opposite.
With both of my main men (Sloan and Williams) gone from the Jazz, a main generator of my personal interest in their fortunes has diminished drastically. I wish Corbin, Jefferson, Bell, Hayward, Watson, Evans, Elson, et al the best of luck, but somehow it just doesn't seem like "my team" anymore.
What's your reaction, Eric?
I wish you guys would come back.
<3,
Trout.
Troutbum,
I'll be back to JazzFanz, but possibly not before May. Tonight I'm giving a pre-test, so I have a little time to post.
aintnuthin,
I think we agree much more than we disagree on the resignation of Sloan and trade of Williams. I did get the sense this season that Sloan was going through the motions, and Williams was unhappy.
I've occasionally posted that I was as much a Sloan fan as anything else. I will finish this season and spend the next one as a Jazz fan, simply because I don't have another team I want to root for right now. If the Jazz stick with Corbin, or bring in another coach who has the team play in the Sloan style or something similar, I will remain one. I don't have any particular geographic or family loyalty at play. I was a mild Celtics fan for a while (until Pitino started caoching), so I might go back to that, or not, if the Jazz dissappoint me.
I miss Deron, I miss Jerry, I miss One Brow and I miss Hopper. Not in any particular order.
Just sayin' Hello
<3 moe
(I'm having problems posting comments. Have I been banned or something?)
I miss you too, moe. I will be back, though.
Mo! Zup, Purty Mama!? It's comforting to know that you know where to find me next time ya git a big-ass hankerin for some homemade wine, eh? Anytime, anyplace, Darlin!
Ya coulda helped stop me from gittin banned over nuthin (main crime: not kissin kicky's ass 24/7), but ya never done nuthin. So why would ya miss me? I know...ya want the wine, doncha?
Eric, I now see that you have made some responses in the scientific vs moral systems thread, but I can't read them.
1. It says "407 comments" when I go to "newest"
2. It says it is displaying 401-407
3. But I see nothing, other than a blank comment box that I can type in. Know why?
It looks like the issues raised by my last post got resolved, eh?
Back to the Jazz:
It seems kind ironic (perhaps "disturbing" is a better word) that the two teams in the league with a bunch of ex-Jazz players are doing so well, eh?
In the last couple weeks, the Nets added Sundiata Gaines and Deron Williams to their roster, joining former Jazzman Kris Humphries on that team. All have been playing extremely well since consolidating, and the Nets just beat the Celtics for their fifth straight win.
No need to elabborate on how well Chicago, with Boozer, Korver, and Brewer are doin.
I'm not saying KOC was "wrong" in anything he did, but the high rate of recent turnover for the Jazz does seem to have hurt the former "chemistry" they had.
Of course, that's without even mentioning Eric Maynor and Wes Matthews, each seemingly playing very well for their respective teams.
Or, until now, mentioning perhaps the biggest loss of all, Jerry Sloan. I pity the Jazz, now.
What happened to the Jazz, really, I wonder?
They started out great, 8-0 in the preseason, 27-13 at one point, Deron was the conference player of the month for November, and they all seemed to agree that they had "great chemistry."
I'm speculating, but I think that, among other things, Williams was unhappy with how Jefferson was adapting to the system. I think he really liked Al, and appreciated his talents, but I think he was getting discouraged that he wasn't adjusting faster, especially after all the personal time Deron put in with him watching films, etc.
Deron was bitchin a lot, directing a lot of it at the Jazz organization, and some of it at teammates. A recurring comment from him was that the team wasn't getting enough assists for the team to win, given their talent level. Which suggests a "selfishness" on the part of some teammates and/or a failure to execute the plays properly.
If he got disillusioned with his teammates, then they in turn would likely quickly get disillusioned with him, because he seems to just blurt out whatever's on his mind, without giving much thought to sensitivity, tact, or diplomacy. That can hurt, and generate animosity. Deron has said in the past that his own kids can't stand him when the team is losing, because he's such a "crab."
Whatever, there was just a radical difference between the first half of the season and the second.
Well, the comment count in the other thread is still too high. Based upon previous experiences, you'll see something similar if/when the comment count aproaches 600.
I agree that Williams was probably getting discouraged, probably both with the limitations in personnel imposed by finances generally and Jefferson's adaptations (or lack thereof) specifically. I think he will be happier on a team where the owner shows he will spare no expense to win a championship and makes no trades based primarily on financial considerations. That's not the Jazz. It may or may not be the Nets.
In terms of wins, the Jazz are certainly much worse off. In terms of their business model and preferred atmosphere, perhaps the loss was much lower.
One Brow said "In terms of wins, the Jazz are certainly much worse off. In terms of their business model and preferred atmosphere, perhaps the loss was much lower."
Yeah, maybe. The loss of Sloan really hurt, though. I still think KOC and/or Miller did or said something that led Sloan to believe that the coachin staff was not getting the full support of management. If that's true, that's certainly a departure from the "business model" that Larry Miller established.
I can't blame KOC/Miller for trading Deron, or find a major fault (at least one not based on hindsight) with any particular trade or player decision they made. That said, the cumulative effect of so many changes does not give the appearance of "stability" which was always important to both Sloan and Larry Miller.
You could be completely crrect there. Or, maybe Sloan was opposed to the plans to trading Williams, and to starting over again at the age of 68 (or thereabouts)? I don't think the Jazz have a realistic shot at building a championship for another six years or so. I don't think O'Connor would have kept Sloan in the dark at his plan to trade Williams to whoever did not get Anthony, especially if Williams was a bone of contention. I still haven't heard an idea on what happened that really makes sense to me, at least more so than Sloan just hasn't been the same since his knee surgery (from what I could tell). Maybe that surgery put him into a depression that he never overcame, and coaching just wasn't worth the effort anymore.
It's nice to have a conversation on this without the extreme emotions and semi-trolls butting in, by the way.
One Brow said: "I still haven't heard an idea on what happened that really makes sense to me..."
Well, in the absract, there is no particular reason for accepting one possible explanation over another. But, for me, the overall context provides some clues.
Part of the context I'm talking about being:
1. On Monday, Sloan agrees to a 1 year extension. You must assume that Sloan put some thought into this before signing, and decided he was, in all probability, at least, up to the task of coaching for another year.
2. The widely reported locker-room argument between Williams and Sloan two or three days later. Although I'm not clear on this issue, it seems that there have been some suggestions that KOC and/or Miller were present for consultation/discussion during halftime.
3. The fact that Sloan did not, as always, promptly appear for the usual post-game interview, but instead kept the reporters waiting for 20-30 minutes, saying only that he was "discussing some things" with KOC.
To me the above scenario suggests a precipitous event which provoked a strong reaction from Sloan, rather than just the "gradual" dawning on him that maybe he was running low on energy, etc.
The argument with Deron, all by itself, could be that precipitating event, but it just doesn't seem consistent with Sloan's well-established characteristics that such an event would, by itself, cause him to "abandon" the team in mid-season.
Several major news outlets, albeit merely citing anonymous "league sources" reported that Sloan and managment did not see eye to eye on how Deron's "insubordination" should be handled. For example: "After repeated clashes with star point guard Deron Williams(notes) and a belief he had become undermined with ownership, Jerry Sloan resigned as the Utah Jazz coach after 23 seasons, league sources told Yahoo! Sports..."He decided right there in halftime that he was done,” a league source told Yahoo! Sports. “He felt like ownership was listening more to Williams than they were to him anymore. He was done.”
That is my basis, such as it is, for giving the idea credence. That DOES seem like the kind of event that might provoke Sloan into quitting on the spot.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-sloanretiring021011
Sloan, as I perceive him, had a strong sense of gratitude toward, and loyalty to, the Jazz organization. If he truly felt that they had doubts about his abilities or judgment, he would likely feel that it was his "duty" to volutarily resign rather than "hang on," despite the perceived lack of confidence.
not sure if this will post, for some reason if I'm using firefox, my comments don't go through... I may have to switch to another browser...
partially in response to some of aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter found out and mentioned it a few weeks back, and that's why everyone thinks it had just recently been signed.
my own opinion (based in part on some of what's come out since the NJ trade, particularly with KOC's overtures in that regard) is that it's possible Jerry got wind that there were major changes under consideration, and he just felt he didn't have the energy to go through yet another rebuilding situation - I think both Jerry and Deron were equally frustrated with some of the trades & free agent signings (or non-signings) over the past 12-14 months, and I also think Al Jeff (in particular) did not get into a good flow with the Jazz as easily and had been hoped, and that was frustrating as well
None of us (me, Aint or OneBrow) are in the SLC area, so we don't have access to the same media as the locals (locker room interviews, other media intervies, etc) so I could be totally wrong on this, but from what I've read and watched, his teammates were no where near as frustrated or upset by Deron as some are making them out to be. In my opinion, a lot of fans projected their own frustration onto the situation and their view of the situation is very unfair towards Deron. But as I said, I don't seem the same interviews they do... Though I've seen quite a bit from the Chicago Jazz over the course of the season that indicates the team was generally quite supportive of Deron and I think some of the issues that others have noted are more imagined than they are real.
The bottom line to me is that KOC wanted a long-term commitment from Deron, and I think Deron was honest and in a sense, was punished for that honesty, and also for not signing a longer-term contract a couple years ago.
so it says my comment was posted, but it doesn't show my comment...
I"m so confused.
not sure if this will post, for some reason if I'm using firefox, my comments don't go through... I may have to switch to another browser... (yep, have to use Safari - - and this is the comment I'm referring to above, I thought this was posted but it wasn't)
Anyhow, partially in response to some of Aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter just found out and mentioned it, and that's why everyone thought it had just recently been signed.
my own opinion is similar to some of what OneBrow wrote. Bbased in part on some of what's come out since the NJ trade and KOC's overtures in that regard, I think Jerry got wind that there were major changes under consideration, changes he didn't necessarily support, and he just felt he didn't have the energy to go through yet another rebuilding situation - I think both Jerry and Deron were equally frustrated with some of the trades & free agent signings (or non-signings) over the past 12-14 months, and I also think AlJeff did not get into a good flow with the Jazz as easily as had been hoped, and that was frustrating as well
None of us (me, Aint or OneBrow) are in the SLC area, so we don't have access to the same media as the locals (locker room interviews, other media intervies, etc) so I could be totally wrong on this, but from what I've read and watched, his teammates were no where near as frustrated or upset by Deron as some are making them out to be. In my opinion, a lot of fans projected their own frustration onto the situation and their view of the situation is very unfair towards Deron. But as I said, I don't see the same interviews they do... Though I've seen quite a bit from the Chicago Jazz over the course of this season that indicates his teammates were generally quite supportive of Deron.
and thanks One Brow, for the opportunity to discuss this, and keep in touch :)
<3 Moe
not sure if this will post, for some reason if I'm using firefox, my comments don't go through... I may have to switch to another browser... (I have switched to safari, I got the above comment to post, but my longer comment refuses to post - it says it's posted, but it's not - like Chiffon margarine says it's butter but it's not...)
partially in response to some of Aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter just found out and mentioned it, and that's why everyone thought it had just recently been signed.
Similar to One Brow, my own opinion, based in part on some of what's come out since the NJ trade, and KOC's overtures in that regard, is that Jerry got wind that there were major changes under consideration, and he just felt he didn't have the energy to go through yet another rebuilding situation - I think both Jerry and Deron were equally frustrated with some of the trades & free agent signings (or non-signings) over the past 12-14 months, and I also think AlJeff did not get into a good flow with the Jazz as easily as had been hoped, and that was frustrating as well
None of us (me, Aint or OneBrow) are in the SLC area, so we don't have access to the same media as the locals (locker room interviews, other media intervies, etc) so I could be totally wrong on this, but from what I've read and watched, his teammates were no where near as frustrated or upset by Deron as some are making them out to be. In my opinion, a lot of fans projected their own frustration onto the situation and their view of the situation is rather unfair towards Deron. But as I said, I don't see the same interviews they do... Though I've seen quite a bit from the Chicago Jazz over the course of the season that indicates his teammates supported him.
and thanks One Brow, for providing the opportunity to have this conversation :)
<3 moe
my comment keeps disappearing
:(
not sure if this will post, for some reason if I'm using firefox, my comments don't go through... I may have to switch to another browser... (I have switched to safari, I got the above comment to post, but my longer comment refuses to post - it says it's posted, but it's not - like Chiffon margarine says it's butter but it's not...)
partially in response to some of Aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter just found out and mentioned it so everyone thought it had just recently been signed.
Similar to One Brow, my own opinion, based in part on some of what's come out since the NJ trade, and KOC's overtures in that regard, is that Jerry got wind that there were major changes under consideration, and he just felt he didn't have the energy to go through yet another rebuilding situation - I think both Jerry and Deron were equally frustrated with some of the trades & free agent signings (or non-signings) over the past 12-14 months...
None of us (me, Aint or OneBrow) are in the SLC area, so we don't have access to the same media as the locals (locker room interviews, other media intervies, etc) so I could be totally wrong on this, but from what I've read and watched, his teammates were no where near as frustrated or upset by Deron as some are making them out to be. In my opinion, a lot of fans projected their own frustration onto the situation...
I got the above comment to post, but my longer comment refuses to post - it says it's posted, but it's not - like Chiffon margarine says it's butter but it's not... in response to some of Aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter just found out and mentioned it so everyone thought it had just recently been signed.
None of us (me, Aint or OneBrow) are in the SLC area, so we don't have access to the same media as the locals (locker room interviews, other media intervies, etc) so I could be totally wrong on this, but from what I've read and watched, his teammates were no where near as frustrated or upset by Deron as some are making them out to be. In my opinion, a lot of fans projected their own frustration onto the situation...
Eric has a spam filter, eh, Mo, so the explanation seems obvious, to wit: Ya aint postin nuthin but spam, see?
I dunno, maybe my comment is too long, it says it's posted, but it's not - like Chiffon margarine says it's butter but it's not... It doesn't seem any longer than some others, but who knows? I'll try to post it in parts.
partially in response to some of Aint's latest comments above, Jerry apparently signed the extension MONTHS ago (back in November IRRC) and it was no big deal since it's been an annual routine occurrence - - but some reporter just found out and mentioned it, and that's why everyone thought it had just recently been signed.
Similar to One Brow, my own opinion, based in part on some of what's come out since the NJ trade, and KOC's overtures in that regard, is that Jerry got wind that there were major changes under consideration, and he just felt he didn't have the energy to go through yet another rebuilding situation - I think both Jerry and Deron were equally frustrated with some of the trades & free agent signings (or non-signings) over the past 12-14 months, and I also think Al Jeff did not get into a flow as easily as had been hoped, and that was frustrating as well. I have a link to post but I'll wait to see if this works, it's a link to a blog post at nbaconfidential at wordpress.
well I tried to post a portion of my comment but it still isn't showing up once I reload the page so I emailed my comment to One Brow. Now that ball's in his court...
informative post here: http://nbaconfidential.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/dissecting-the-deal-how-deron-williams-could-have-gone-to-new-york-instead-of-new-jersey/#more-253
Bidnizz is bidnizz, as they say, but, still...
When Brewer was traded, it was like an hour before the deadline, and he was getting on the team plane for their next game. I think team morale was hurt as much by that timing, with no forewarning, no chance to say goodbye, etc., than it was by the trade itself.
Now it turns out that KOC has been schemin to trade Deron for a good long spell, and still let's him find out about it on TV.
From the players' perspective this might well seem callous, and though it might generate some fear by virtue of the knowledge that mananagement sees them all as expendable tools, it doesn't seem likely to enhance a sense of loyalty to the team or a "family" atmosphere.
In a certain sense, I get the feeling that Gregg Miller feels it more important to assert himself and put his "stamp" on the team than it is to carry on the long-successful policies of his Dad.
moeville,
Blogspot has adopted an aggressive spam block policy. YOur comments have been rescued from the spam filter. The more I remove from there, the fewer will be put there, percentage wise, based on previous experience.
aintnuthin,
I think you may have hit it right on the money with Greg Miller's determination to make this "his team". Hopefully he'll mellow that out in a couple of years.
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