Monday, October 19, 2009
Review of TLS -- Promises are made
This is the second in a series of posts that will be reviewing and responding to the arguments of Dr. Feser's The Last Superstition. This was part 1. I haven't read many books of philosophy, and none aimed at popular audiences, so when I note that Dr. Feser starts out with a list of claims that he promises to demonstrate later, I have no idea if that is standard procedure or not. It does make the first chapter, Bad Religion, devoid of meaningful content with regard to establishing Dr. Feser's claims. However, one of the things I want to do is to in this post is list all these promises Dr. Feser makes in Chapter 1. After I review the last chapter, I will return to this list and we will see what has actually been proven.
Claims Dr. Feser says he will demonstrate
Secularism is inherently immoral and irrational, only a specific sort of religious view can be moral, rational, and sane
On intellectual grounds, atheism can not be true
Secularism can never spring from reason; its true grounding is from a willfulness and desire for it to be true
The basic metaphysical assumptions that make atheism possible are mistaken
Secular propaganda is the source of fideism
It is as impossible to say nature has no meaning or purpose as it is to square a circle (more on that below)
Secularism is parasitic on religion for all its important ideas, it is strictly a negation
What is characterized as a war between science and religion is really a war between competing metaphysical systems
The classical metaphysical picture is rationally unavoidable, and thus so is the traditional Western religious view derived from it
Given atheism and naturalism, there is no persuasive argument that allows you to trust in either reason or morality
Edit on 2009-NOV-17 to add: The abandonment of Aristotle's metaphysics has led to the abandonment of any rational or moral standards that can be used to justify moral positions, and is responsible for the curent civilizational crisis of the West.
Dr. Feser allows himself a full 241 pages in the next five chapters to accomplish all this. Of course, with so modest an undertaking, he leaves himself plenty of space to continue to denigrate atheism, secularism, the New Atheists (Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens), Hume, and many more in those chapters as well.
I do have a few other comments on some of Dr. Feser's remarks in chapter 1. While I still intend to avoid responding to the mere demagoguery that he indulges himself in, there are a few points that reveal interesting and noteworthy aspects of both him and his opinion of his audience.
There is nothing particularly noteworthy or striking about his claim that the less people know, they less they realize their ignorance. In fact, I read similar thoughts from a variety of science books and scientists growing up, typically along the lines of 'The more you know, the more you realize how little you know'.
I do not agree that attempts to account for phenomena such as the mind without referencing God is a religious discussion. You might as well say that attempts to account for lightning without referencing God is a religious discussion. Then again, perhaps Dr. Feser would say that. I would not be surprised at all to see him claim that any discussion of any natural phenomenon is inherently religious.
One of the common hallmarks of purveyors of woo is a sense of persecution that results from being treated equally. This comes out twice in Chapter 1, where first Dr. Feser complains that some philosophical positions distasteful to him are considered still worth discussion even when they can't be demonstrated, while the subject of religion is considered not to have made its case. Of course, the second standard is a far higher hurdle than the first, and certainly not to be awarded lightly. To imply that religion must be granted the second when other positions are granted the first, or else the supporters of the second are receiving unfair treatment, sounds very much like a persecution complex. Shortly after that, he complains that the distasteful propositions are referred to as making people think, whereas in this context religion is apparently not worthy of a moment's notice. He acknowledges that most people are raised religiously, but somehow misses the point that immersing people in thoughts they already find comfortable will be doing the opposite of making them think, it is much more likely to lull them to stupor. However, the concern seems to be for some sort of time equality, not purpose, because otherwise religious ideas are just not being treated fairly.
Dr. Feser pulls out the old saw about the desire to disbelieve in hellfire being a motivation for atheism. Oddly, I have met very few Christians who believed they, personally, were going to hell. I certainly never did, back in the day. He doesn't seem to understand the human tendency for exceptionalism, or to be deliberately ignoring it.
Dr. Feser declares that the notions of a selfish gene, or design via natural selection, can only be true and interesting if by these terms we attribute some superhuman, literal intelligence to the gene and the process. I'm not sure what to make of this. Obviously he knows the terms are metaphors that describe the complex interactions of various feedbacks mechanisms. He doesn't think that the study of feedback mechanisms is interesting, that the feedback mechanisms are not true, or that the use of metaphor makes the concept untrue or uninteresting?
Dr. Feser complains about 'Easter Bunny comparisons to God', which he disdains. This is all fine for him, but the authors upon whom he heaps this disdain are do not have the audience of his peers in mind; their books are for the general public, and often specifically the religious members thereof. The Easter Bunny example actually strikes right at the heart of what many of these people believe. If the religious group doesn't have their followers trained in the ideas of Aristotle, why should it be the job of Dennett, et. al., to train them? Later on, Dr. Feser says that this is an example of these authors not being willing to take on the real issues against the formidable opposition. With all the diminutions hurled against these authors, you would think he believe this is the appropriate level of opposition for them, but I suppose he thinks even more poorly of his fellow believers in this regard. At any rate, while I might not have the training of a Dennett, I am happy to accommodate Dr. Feser by engaging his ideas directly. Having read through Chapter 4 so far, I have not found any reason to see his presentation of reason, faith, and religion as having a superior metaphysical basis to your typical Sunday preacher.
Finally, Dr. Feser likes to make great use out of the metaphysical absurdity of square circles. He is unaware that all circles are indeed squares, under the taxicab metric (I'll devote a separate post to that). This is a problem with his metaphysical analysis that we’ll cover in more detail later. For now, let’s just say that like any other formal system, Aristotle’s metaphysics will turn out to be founded on arbitrarily chosen premises that are inherently improvable and not obviously better than a variety of alternatives as a description of reality.
Claims Dr. Feser says he will demonstrate
Secularism is inherently immoral and irrational, only a specific sort of religious view can be moral, rational, and sane
On intellectual grounds, atheism can not be true
Secularism can never spring from reason; its true grounding is from a willfulness and desire for it to be true
The basic metaphysical assumptions that make atheism possible are mistaken
Secular propaganda is the source of fideism
It is as impossible to say nature has no meaning or purpose as it is to square a circle (more on that below)
Secularism is parasitic on religion for all its important ideas, it is strictly a negation
What is characterized as a war between science and religion is really a war between competing metaphysical systems
The classical metaphysical picture is rationally unavoidable, and thus so is the traditional Western religious view derived from it
Given atheism and naturalism, there is no persuasive argument that allows you to trust in either reason or morality
Edit on 2009-NOV-17 to add: The abandonment of Aristotle's metaphysics has led to the abandonment of any rational or moral standards that can be used to justify moral positions, and is responsible for the curent civilizational crisis of the West.
Dr. Feser allows himself a full 241 pages in the next five chapters to accomplish all this. Of course, with so modest an undertaking, he leaves himself plenty of space to continue to denigrate atheism, secularism, the New Atheists (Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens), Hume, and many more in those chapters as well.
I do have a few other comments on some of Dr. Feser's remarks in chapter 1. While I still intend to avoid responding to the mere demagoguery that he indulges himself in, there are a few points that reveal interesting and noteworthy aspects of both him and his opinion of his audience.
There is nothing particularly noteworthy or striking about his claim that the less people know, they less they realize their ignorance. In fact, I read similar thoughts from a variety of science books and scientists growing up, typically along the lines of 'The more you know, the more you realize how little you know'.
I do not agree that attempts to account for phenomena such as the mind without referencing God is a religious discussion. You might as well say that attempts to account for lightning without referencing God is a religious discussion. Then again, perhaps Dr. Feser would say that. I would not be surprised at all to see him claim that any discussion of any natural phenomenon is inherently religious.
One of the common hallmarks of purveyors of woo is a sense of persecution that results from being treated equally. This comes out twice in Chapter 1, where first Dr. Feser complains that some philosophical positions distasteful to him are considered still worth discussion even when they can't be demonstrated, while the subject of religion is considered not to have made its case. Of course, the second standard is a far higher hurdle than the first, and certainly not to be awarded lightly. To imply that religion must be granted the second when other positions are granted the first, or else the supporters of the second are receiving unfair treatment, sounds very much like a persecution complex. Shortly after that, he complains that the distasteful propositions are referred to as making people think, whereas in this context religion is apparently not worthy of a moment's notice. He acknowledges that most people are raised religiously, but somehow misses the point that immersing people in thoughts they already find comfortable will be doing the opposite of making them think, it is much more likely to lull them to stupor. However, the concern seems to be for some sort of time equality, not purpose, because otherwise religious ideas are just not being treated fairly.
Dr. Feser pulls out the old saw about the desire to disbelieve in hellfire being a motivation for atheism. Oddly, I have met very few Christians who believed they, personally, were going to hell. I certainly never did, back in the day. He doesn't seem to understand the human tendency for exceptionalism, or to be deliberately ignoring it.
Dr. Feser declares that the notions of a selfish gene, or design via natural selection, can only be true and interesting if by these terms we attribute some superhuman, literal intelligence to the gene and the process. I'm not sure what to make of this. Obviously he knows the terms are metaphors that describe the complex interactions of various feedbacks mechanisms. He doesn't think that the study of feedback mechanisms is interesting, that the feedback mechanisms are not true, or that the use of metaphor makes the concept untrue or uninteresting?
Dr. Feser complains about 'Easter Bunny comparisons to God', which he disdains. This is all fine for him, but the authors upon whom he heaps this disdain are do not have the audience of his peers in mind; their books are for the general public, and often specifically the religious members thereof. The Easter Bunny example actually strikes right at the heart of what many of these people believe. If the religious group doesn't have their followers trained in the ideas of Aristotle, why should it be the job of Dennett, et. al., to train them? Later on, Dr. Feser says that this is an example of these authors not being willing to take on the real issues against the formidable opposition. With all the diminutions hurled against these authors, you would think he believe this is the appropriate level of opposition for them, but I suppose he thinks even more poorly of his fellow believers in this regard. At any rate, while I might not have the training of a Dennett, I am happy to accommodate Dr. Feser by engaging his ideas directly. Having read through Chapter 4 so far, I have not found any reason to see his presentation of reason, faith, and religion as having a superior metaphysical basis to your typical Sunday preacher.
Finally, Dr. Feser likes to make great use out of the metaphysical absurdity of square circles. He is unaware that all circles are indeed squares, under the taxicab metric (I'll devote a separate post to that). This is a problem with his metaphysical analysis that we’ll cover in more detail later. For now, let’s just say that like any other formal system, Aristotle’s metaphysics will turn out to be founded on arbitrarily chosen premises that are inherently improvable and not obviously better than a variety of alternatives as a description of reality.
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1,677 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1677 Newer› Newest»Eric, you are so totally immersed in your mushy, conflated, equivocal thought patterns, which are themselves selectively applied, as needed, to convince yourself that your apriori conclusions MUST be true, that you simply cannot extricate yourself. I have concluded that your conclusions (whether in matters of darwinism, relativity, global warming, or any other topic where you have a favored conclusion going in) are NOT based upon independent analysis at all. They are based upon something else and you rely on your own personal interpretation of authority figures to reassure yourself that your preferred conclusion HAVE TO BE the only correct ones.
I would suggest that you ask Colton, or any other person you believe is truly qualifed, to read my recent posts here (and yours) and ask him what it all means. If Colton cares to, invite him to join our discussion, and I will address him directly.
I will end this post with a few examples of your raw assertions that are just flat wrong. I have explained "why" they are wrong over and over, so I won't do it again. But it may help pinpoint some of the places where we disagree:
I said: "Number one: The GR crap is not a "resolution" to the SR problem, and it does not "solve" the SR question even if you can get the same answer."
You responded: "Not "can" get. Can only get. Do get. Must get. Will get. It's not a trick you make happen, it's the inevitable outcome, because the GR solution is the SR solution in a different coordinate frame with the same ending inertial state."
Wrong, utterly and completely wrong.
======
One Brow said: "Naturally, because the GR answer is the SR answer, under a different coordinate frame that has the same final inertial state."
Wrong.
======
One Brow said: "Nonsense. SR gives you answers in both #1 and #2. Because #! and #2 describe different relativistic conditions (agsin under my presumpiton of what you mean by moving), there is no reason they would have the same answer."
Wrong.
I also think I see just where you are going wrong, and I have told you how and why, but you cannot understand a word of it. Maybe you will understand if Colton explains it to you (i.e., maybe you will actually listen to him and actually try to consider and understand what he says).
If Colton does care to get involved, I would ask that he carefully read, as background, the following 3 things:
1. The wiki article (paying special attention to what the supposed paradox really is (absolute effects from "relative" motion)
2. The pertinent things at this site: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_intro.html
3. Einstien's "dialogue," wherein he purports to resolve the twin paradox.
You keep asking me what I mean by "really moving" or "real motion." I have explained this repeatedly and have little hope that doing so yet again will achieve anything productive. That said, even though I expect it to be a waste of effort, I will say the following about it. If you have any desire whatsover to try to understand what I am saying then (FOR NOW) completely ignore anything having to do with "co-ordinate systems" or "inertial frames." Don't try to "translate" what I am saying into your mathematical terminology. You can always do that later, but don't do it now.
1. Having no particular point which we can say, with confidence from an empirical standpoint, is at rest with respect to every other "moving" thing in the universe, we must abandon any belief that we can empirically determine "absolute" motion. Without a point at "absolute" rest to base it on, "absolute motion" cannot be determined.
2. Having said that, if we see two objects distancing themselves from each other we posit that the observation is real. The "relative" motion we see is not just an illusion where each is actually at rest and neither is really moving. We are not simply deceived by our senses, and hence led to believe in a (false) "appearance" of motion that is, in reality, merely illuosry.
3. To put it another way, there is "real" (not illusory) motion between the two. Even if we can't say which one(s) is "really" moving, it follows, from what we said in 2, above, that AT LEAST ONE (but probably both) is "really" (and not merely "apparently") moving.
I will stop there, for now. Tell me what, if anything, I have said so far that you disagree with.
I was going to wait for your reply, but I will continue without further input from you. I will try to keep numbering my points, and breaking them up so that tell me your disagreement, if any, with a particular point and easily identify it by "number," OK?
4. "Relative" motion is often used interchangably with "apparent motion," but this can easily mislead one who does not analyze what is intended by such terms. The contrast to "relative motion" is "absolute motion." It would then seem that the natural (and identical) contrast with "apparent motion" would be "real motion." If one does not take to care to note that both sets of contrasts can be interpreted as either epistemological and/or ontological in intention then one can become confused. Some people make the mistake of treating the relative/absolute contrast as essentially an ontological constrast in the context of relativity theory.
5. Those who mistakenly believe that, in relativity theory, the relative/absolute contrast is an ontological contrast probably do so because they are basing that conclusion on the apparent/real contrast. They presumably see the apparent/real constrast as be the same as (i.e., identical to) the relative/absolute contrast. Since the apparent/real contrast is often made in ontological contexts, they then mistakenly assume that it is also used that way in relativity theory. They therefore conclude that the apparent/real contrast is an ontological one. Since that is merely the "same" contrast as is the relative/absolute contrast, the latter too must be intended in an ontological sense. For example, one might then declare that "All motion is relative and apparent, therefore no motion is asbolute or real" and then mistakenly believe that is distinction between "apparent" and "real" is an ontological one (which it aint), not an epistemological one (which it is).
6. Although the "real/apparent" distinction is a common one made in the context of ontology, one must remember that, in the context of relativity theory, the "real/apparent" distinction is NOT ontological; it is merely epistemological. In the context of relativity theory, if one says there is no "real" motion, only "apparent" motion, one is NOT saying that in an ontological sense, unless he is using it in a mistaken sense. In other words, he is NOT saying that all motion is illusory (in the ontological sense of "apparent") and that therefore "real" motion does not exist, a la Parmenides. Parmenides, as you recall, said that all motion "really is" an illusion, a false impression. For him everything was indeed, at all times, at "rest." Motion was simply not at all "real," for him, at an ontological level. But, again, that is not what is intended in relativity. In relativity theory motion is INDEED posited to be REAL, not merely apparent, in the ontological sense (as set forth in point 2, above).
7. So then, in the context of relativity theory, motion "really" does exist, ontologicallly. The motion we see is NOT merely "apparent" motion in the ontological sense, it is "real" (non-illusory) motion. There is REAL motion, in the ontological sense, even if we cannot pinpoint which motion is "absolute" (an epistemological notion, not an ontological notion--see 1, from above).
With me so far, Eric?
If you are with me, and if you agree so far, then you should easily be able to see that...
8. In relatively theory, real motion exists, even if we cannot empirically detect it in such a way as to call it "absolute" motion. Saying that we cannot detect absolute motion is NOT to say there is no "real" motion.
9. Furthermore relatively does not even purport to claim, as some believe, that this is no "absolute" motion, as an ontological matter. It simply says that, even if there is absolute motion, we cannot detect it, which is an entirely different statement. It is, again, merely an epistemological, not an ontological statement. Once again, relativity does not say there is no absolute motion. It only says we cannot detect absolute motion. This too is an important distinction to be kept in mind.
10. Now, just as a thought experiment, let's say we could empircally determine a point which really is "at rest" with respect to all other things which are "really moving." Just for the hell of it, let's say that this point is the very point at which the big bang occurred, and that, ever since, all things (or at least all things, if any, that have not since come to a "complete stop") all objects have been "in motion" with respect to that (motionless aka "at rest") point where the big bang occurred. Now what?
Well, for one, we could now detect absolute motion. Would this be inconsistent with relativity theory? Well, yes, in one sense, but basically, no, it wouldn't. It would be "inconsistent" with relativity theory only to the extent to which relativity theory says we CAN NOT detect a motionless point. But it would NOT be inconsistent with relativity theory to now say absolute motion can be said, with empirically-based confidence, to really exist. Remember, relativity theory never purported to say absolute motion does NOT (in an ontological sense) exist. It only said we couldn't detect it.
I said: "2. Having said that, if we see two objects distancing themselves from each other we posit that the observation is real. The "relative" motion we see is not just an illusion where each is actually at rest and neither is really moving. We are not simply deceived by our senses, and hence led to believe in a (false) "appearance" of motion that is, in reality, merely illuosry."
It is worth noting that this postulation is itself, merely assuming a certain perspective and presupposing certain defintions that are not NECESSARILY true.
I could say, for example: "Fools! Neither of the two objects is "really" moving. They both are, at all times, completely "at rest." They only appear to be moving because the space between them is expanding. Any fool can see that."
Of course, I could be right, even if I don't have any idea of what I am "really" saying, and I'm just saying it because I think it sounds smart and because I want to take a "contrarian" position, come hell or high water.
I said: I could say, for example: "Fools! Neither of the two objects is "really" moving. They both are, at all times, completely "at rest." They only appear to be moving because the space between them is expanding. Any fool can see that."
And, I suppose, I could, if mathematically competent, go on from there to develop a whole theory which replaces the "theory of relative motion." My new theory would be the "theory of no motion, relative or absoute, whatsoever, anytime, anyplace, anyhow." Nothing ever moves, space just expands, see?
That would be really, truly, clever, doncha think!?
I said: "Nothing ever moves, space just expands, see?"
Well, expands and contracts, whatever.....
Eric, suppose I have chump A on my left, B straight in front of me, C to my right, and D behind me. Now suppose I hold a silver dollar between between my thumb and forefinger in such a way that:
A sees heads
B sees the edge of the coin
C sees tails
D sees my back, and hence no coin at all.
Is there some profound philosophical insight to be gleaned from this? If so, what is it?
Is there anything that is in the least bit unique or surprising about the fact that 4 different people see 4 different things? Is so, what is it?
Suppose those same 4 face me. I then ask A to put on some sunglasses and close his eyes until I tell him to open them. Unbeknownst to A, I have taped a small image of the tails side of a silver dollar to the inside of his glasses in just the right spot for my purposes.
I then hold a silver dollar so that the heads side of the coin is presented to all of them, and tell A to now open his eyes. I ask them all what side of the coin they are seeing. A sees tails, B, C, and D, all see heads.
Is there some profound philosophical insight to be gleaned from this? If so, what is it?
Is there anything that is in the least bit unique or surprising about the fact that under the circumstances, 3 different people see the same thing and 1 sees a different thing? Is so, what is it?
Would it be incorrect to say that 3 of them see the side of the coin which I am really presenting to them and that one of them is deceived about side of the coin which I am really presenting to them?
colton said he would be happy to repond to a PM about our different takes on this. So, let's see if we can figure out where we differ. I doubt we would even agree on that.
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. I agree there is real motion between the two. However, since motion is a relative phenomenon between two objects/inertial frames/etc., you can't apply it to one object.
Let's say you want to measure talent differential between a starting point guard and their backup, called PGd. You can talk about the PGd of the Jazz (which is a team with more than one PG) or the PGd of Fisher and Farmer. It does not make sense to talk abou the PGd of Kidd, because there is not second PG against which the measure can be made. Motion is relative to something else, you don't say one object is moving without reference to something else.
4.- 6. are difficult to parse because you seem to be equivocating on two different ideas regarding "apparent", one as "observed" and the other as "illusary". What is observed is what is relative is what is real is, after an absolute rest frame is specified, what is absolute. Your distinction seem highly artificial.
I'll stop there until this gets cleared up.
One Brow said: "3. I agree there is real motion between the two. However, since motion is a relative phenomenon between two objects/inertial frames/etc., you can't apply it to one object."
Can we make another distinction here with respect to your statement that "you can't apply it to one object?"
1. It follow from number 1, above, that you cannot apply it absolutely an as empircal matter--this was actually stated in 3 itself where I say: "Even if we can't say which one(s) is "really" moving..."
2. You can however "apply" it to one object or the other strictly by postulation. I can "treat" object 1 as being motionless (in the frame which includes the two) in which case I am (again by postulation) imputing ALL the real motion to object 2.
One Brow said: "Motion is relative to something else, you don't say one object is moving without reference to something else."
My initial response may have mistook your intended point. I agree that there is no real way to make sense of the notion of "motion" without at least 2 objects to contrast.
One Brow said: "4.- 6. are difficult to parse because you seem to be equivocating on two different ideas regarding "apparent", one as "observed" and the other as "illusary". What is observed is what is relative is what is real is, after an absolute rest frame is specified, what is absolute. Your distinction seem highly artificial."
I can't parse your last sentence either. I realize I unnecessarily complicated posts 4-6 by trying to explain what I think some people confuse ontology with epistemology. Let me re-read what I said, and maybe break it down some...
Last sentence of 5, I say: "For example, one might then declare that "All motion is relative and apparent, therefore no motion is asbolute or real" and then mistakenly believe that is distinction between "apparent" and "real" is an ontological one (which it aint), not an epistemological one (which it is)."
Does this, standing alone, make any sense to you?
There are are at least two ways to interpret the word "apparent"
1. Ontological sense: Imaginary and illusory, but not "real"
2. Epistemological sense: An "appearance" to the senses.
An "appearance" to the senses may or may not be "true" (ontologically accurate).
Example: "I say, that car appears to be moving away from me at a high rate of speed." This is my interpretation of what I see. The car may or may not be moving away from me in the ontological sense.
Excerpt from first sentence in 6: "....in the context of relativity theory, the "real/apparent" distinction is NOT ontological; it is merely epistemological"
Does this, standing alone, make sense to you?
There is another point to all of this (i.e., 4-6), which is perhaps not as explicitly addressed, mainly because I was trying to explain to you what I meant by "real.'
The other point is this:
As used in SR, the "relative/absolute" distinction is itself merely an epistemological (not ontological) distinction. I think this is more specifically addressed in 7-9.
So, in other words, I guess I am asking you if you agree with the last sentence of 4, which says:
"Some people make the mistake of treating the relative/absolute contrast as essentially an ontological constrast in the context of relativity theory."
In other words, do you agree that it is a "mistake?"
I'm probably getting too deep into this too fast, but...
Suppose someone says: "There is NO absolute motion, ALL motion is merely relative."
If the "is no" part of that statement is taken in an ontological sense, then the statement is self-contradictory. Why? Because if motion DOES NOT exist in the absolute (ontological) sense of "existence," then there can be no relative motion either, because there simply is "no motion," period.
I said: Suppose someone says: "There is NO absolute motion, ALL motion is merely relative."
In other words, if the person statement making that statement is claiming that motion does not exist in an ontological (absolute) sense, then he is implicitly using the word "relative" to signify "apparent" (illusory) in the ontological sense also.
When I said the statement would be "self-contradictory," I meant it would be so if he was trying to equivocate between the ontological sense of "absolute" and the epistemological sense of "relative." There is no contradiction if both terms are consistently (uneqivocally) used in the same ontological sense.
But then he is simply taking the position of Parmenides, which presumably is NOT what he really intended when making the statement.
Likewise, there is no inconsistency or contradiction if he uses the terms "absolute" and "relative" unequivocally in the epistemological sense each time. If he does that, then this statement:
"There is NO absolute motion, ALL motion is merely relative" must be interpreted as:
"We cannot detect absolute motion, we can only detect relative motion."
But that is not what he said, even if that's what he meant. People often start equivocating between the two in their statements and thought patterns, I think.
I said: "We cannot detect absolute motion, we can only detect relative motion."
Now, coming full circle, in this sentence, "relative motion" is "real" (non-illusory). What we do detect is real, not merely apparent.
Again, I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but....
Let's say we have objects E (for earth) and S (for spaceship) to consider. Now let's say that, for hypothetical purposes only, we POSTULATE that (between the two objects, E and S, at least) that E is motionless. This, by hypothesis, imputes all real motion to S. OK, now we can go from there, but....
Notice what else we have done. We have now eliminated, for purposes of our problem, any empirical concerns about being ABLE TO DETECT absolute motion. Within the context of our continuing discussion of the problem, such concerns have been eliminated, and there is no reason to bring them up again.
Now then, given our postulates we can apply our math to our other assumptions, and come up with an answer. Once finished, it is only fair to remind yourself, that the answer is correct (or incorrect) only within the context of the assumptions (which include the assumption that E remained motionless).
What is not fair is to get half-way through the discussion and THEN start raising objections about not being able to empirically detect absolute motion. That is merely an attempt to now deny the original assumption upon which the whole discussion was based. It is merely an inappropriate attempt to now "change the question."
Likewise, it is simply a non sequitur to attempt to invalidate the answer you arrived at by pointing out that "if you had used different assumptions, then you would have (or at least might have) arrived at a different answer!"
That goes without saying. It is true of every problem, in every aspect of human understanding, not just relativity. It does nothing to invalidate the answer arrived at, in the context it was arrived at.
It is no different than saying "if the question had been different, your answer might have been different. No shit, Sherlock!?
Using only SR, I can get any answer I want to the twin question, simply by changing the assumptions of the problem. I could for example, assume that, instead of only the ship twin moving, BOTH the earth and the ship and the earth began moving, at equal speeds in opposite directions and that then, when they had both reached points equidistant from the starting point, both reversed direction and began to converge upon each other at equal rates of speed until the reunited.
Now both twins are the exact same age! This "resolves" all paradoxes in the so-called "twin paradox," don't it!?
No, afraid not. That is not the question asked in the twin paradox problem. I have merely changed the assumptions and have only answered a different question. I may like the answer better, but that doesn't entitle me to claim that it "answers the question."
Last sentence of 5, I say: "For example, one might then declare that "All motion is relative and apparent, therefore no motion is asbolute or real" and then mistakenly believe that is distinction between "apparent" and "real" is an ontological one (which it aint), not an epistemological one (which it is)."
Does this, standing alone, make any sense to you?
The words individually make sense, but teh paragraph does not. I still don't buy into your distinction between relative and real motion, relative motion is real motion. Similarly, I don't see a distinct between epistemologically apparent motion and real motion. Any of the above is also absolute motion after you declare an absolute rest frame. You're not even contracting crimson and scarlet, you're talking about the difference between scarlet and scarlet.
6: "....in the context of relativity theory, the "real/apparent" distinction is NOT ontological; it is merely epistemological"
Does this, standing alone, make sense to you?
From what I can tell, there is no difference in relativity theory at all. The only time it can look like there is a difference is when people disregard the relativity of simultaneity.
Once again, relativity does not say there is no absolute motion. It only says we cannot detect absolute motion.
It goes even further. In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion.
"Some people make the mistake of treating the relative/absolute contrast as essentially an ontological constrast in the context of relativity theory."
In other words, do you agree that it is a "mistake?"
The mistake that I think is occuring is, AFAICT, not the mistake you mean. The mistake I see is seeing the notions of relative/absolute motion as being constrasting rather than in a nested heirarchy, where one description of relative motion contains an infinite numbers descriptions of the system in terms of absolute motion, while any description of that system in terms of absolute motion can only match one description using relative motion.
One Brow said: "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
1. Is this supposed to indicate some disagreement with anything I've said?
2. In what sense are you now using the phrase "absolute motion." This sounds like just another attempt at semantical obfuscation to me.
3. Are you saying that ALL motion IS absolute? If so, why would we need any theory of relativity to begin with?
1. I'm not sure. That would depend on, when you were talking about the contrast between relative and absolute motion, you meant they were opposed or just that they were different, and in the specific way that one description of relative motion corresponds to an infinite number of descriptions of absolute mtion.
2. Motion with respect to an absolute rest frame, the classical definition, with the understanding that the choice of that rest frame is arbitrary.
3. All motion is absolute after the rest frame has been chosen. Relativity allows us to discuss the motion and it's effects without choosing the rest frame at all.
So what I have previously called absolute and real motion in the context of relativity is also what you would call absolute and real in that context?
Assume objects E and S. Assume that E is then chosen as the "rest frame." In the way you define "absolute" and "real" would both of these statements be true, without further qualification?
1. S is in absolute motion
2. S is really moving.
Assume objects E and S. Assume that you ask me to arbitrarily choose a rest frame. Suppose I refuse to do so, on the grounds that it would be "impossible" to ever do so, arbitrarily or not. Suppose, as you say, we then continue to "discuss the motion and it's effects without choosing the rest frame at all."
What kind of motion would we be "discussing" then?
1. Merely apparent motion?
2. Merely relative motion?
3. Real motion?
4. After yes or no to above, fill in your own definition of the "kind" of motion we would then be discussing.
Assume objects E and S. Assume (as was implied in the prior questions) E and S are moving with respect to each other. Assume that I arbitarily choose E as "at rest," but only as between objects E and S. In other words, I don't pick it as a "rest frame" with respect to any other objects (the sun, for example). What kind of motion would be be discussing then.
1. Absolute motion?
2. Real motion?
3. Relative motion?
4. Relatively absolute motion?
5. Absolutely relative motion?
6. Apparently absolute motion?
7. Apparently relative moton?
8. Relatively real motion?
9. Relatively apparent absolute real motion?
"1. S is in absolute motion" and "2. S is really moving" are, at best, so incomplete as to be meaningless on their own. After all, we don't want to be mushy-headed.
1.-3. are all yes. I'm not sure what to "fill in".
1. No. 2. Yes. 3. Yes. I assume 4.-9. are jokes.
You said this: "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
When asked to elaborate upon the meaning of "absolute motion, you added this: "Motion with respect to an absolute rest frame, the classical definition, with the understanding that the choice of that rest frame is arbitrary."
I am trying to pin this down, because you have been expressing absolute bewilderment about what I could even mean when I suggested, for example, that in the wiki twin paradox example, the spaceship (travelling twin) was, as between the two, the one who was "really moving."
You have had no difficulty whatsover unequivocally affirming instances of "merely apparent" and "merely relative motion, but are somehow unable to respond to the now-suddenely-meaningless phrase (absolute motion) which you selected and defined yourself
Of your own volition, you suddenly say that "any" motion can be considered as a description of "absolute motion." I have my own idea of what "absolute motion" means, but it is apparently NOTHING like the term you are using, because now your very own phrase ("absolute motion") is incomplete and meaningless, according to you. You say: "S is in absolute motion" [is] so incomplete as to be meaningless." Can you give me, in YOUR words, a complete and meaningful defintion of what YOU mean by "absolute motion?"
I find it curious that I repeat you own words back to you, verbatim, in the context you have used it, only to have me that the use of your own words is "meaningless," ya know?
Back when we first started discussing the twin paradox, you were mixing what, in retrospect, seems to be a decent description of the standard interpretation of the paradox with a phrase that carries historical baggage in physics ("absolute motion"). You still don't seem to realize this phrase carries this baggage with it.
To say someing it absolutely moing or in absolute motion is meaningless without a refence to the absolute rest frame. Further, because of the baggage carried by that term, when you use it in an unqualified manner, you bring in the traditional meaning where there is some natural universal rest frame that does not meed to be specified. Using a phrase that means "motion in this natural rest frame" when you really mean "motion in this chosen rest frame" is sloppy (especially when we already have terminology that states the second more clearly), and to do it without qualification makes what you write prone to misunderstanding. I suggest that, unless you are discussing theories that invole a universal ether or some other natural rest frame, you just stop using it.
When I was pointing out that relative motion was absolute motion with a specifed rest frame, I was responding to your usage of the term. If you care to look back, I never use absolute motion as an expalnation, I only use it in response to your use of it.
I am trying to pin this down, because you have been expressing absolute bewilderment about what I could even mean when I suggested, for example, that in the wiki twin paradox example, the spaceship (travelling twin) was, as between the two, the one who was "really moving."
Getting back to the ontological/epistemological distinction, relativity makes epistemological claims, but the reasons we identify the shp twin as the one moving are based on an ontological assumption. Relativity takes no note of this ontological assumption and does not require it.
Could you do the same for the word "real" and any direct variants thereof, such as "really? I have understood you to repeatedly agree that there is "real" motion in the context of relativity theory, but it appears that, for you, that term s also so incomplete as to be meaningless. You say: "S is really moving" [is] at best, so incomplete as to be meaningless."
Trying to talk to you without encountering ever-changing definitions is starting to look impossible. You use words that most others have very little trouble understanding and then later seem to have a *special* meaning to you, which only you can see and define. In the context of all your assent to the existence of "real" motion, what does "real" mean? In that context, what would "really" mean? Would it be "meaningless?"
Look, Eric, you act like you're telling me something... I made a post (#1) here that states "relativity's" position on (and definition of, more or less) "absolute motion," which you said you agreed with. These posts explicitly contrast SR's position with the "classical" one on the topic. That was not good enough for you. You felt compelled to add more about what "relativity" (not me, not Lorentz, not Van Flandern, but RELATIVITY) says about the topic of "absolute motion""
Me: Once again, relativity does not say there is no absolute motion. It only says we cannot detect absolute motion." <--- For you, that is evidently an insufficient summary of what RELATIVITY says about "absolute motion," so
You say: "It goes even further. In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion." <---and here I stupidly thought that relativity eschewed the concept of absolute motion, eh?
But not so! According to you, RELATIVITY "goes further," and says "any description" of motion can be considered to by one of "absolute motion."
Who's really using the term "absolute motion" in an unqualified manner and vague manner here?
Are you only trying to say that "relativity" utterly rejects that any use of "absolute motion" is appropriate, but acknowledges that misguided fools, like Lorentz, may think otherwise? Is THAT what you're really trying to say? If so, why not just SAY THAT, rather than telling me what RELATIVITY says in such a way as to suggest that I have misrepresented, or otherwise failed to specify, what RELATIVITY says? Not that we didn't all know that anyway, but since you feel it MUST be said again, you could at least say what you mean, ya know?
You never answered the question, that I can tell. What does this mean? "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
You now claim that "I was responding to your usage of the term." But YOU are the one who went out of your way to bring it up and tell me how the concept was used "in relativity theory." Please remember you entirely unsolicited claim is all prefaced by the introductory phrase "IN RELATIVITY THEORY." What motion is considered to be "absolute motion" in the context of relativity theory?
You didn't say in "other, non-relativistic, theories." Is that what you meant to say?
I said: "I am trying to pin this down, because you have been expressing absolute bewilderment about what I could even mean when I suggested, for example, that in the wiki twin paradox example, the spaceship (travelling twin) was, as between the two, the one who was "really moving."
Your reply "Getting back to the ontological/epistemological distinction, relativity makes epistemological claims, but the reasons we identify the shp twin as the one moving are based on an ontological assumption. Relativity takes no note of this ontological assumption and does not require it."
Thank you for giving me yet another example of an instance whether you refuse to be "pinned down" so that you can be left free to equivocate left and right as suits your purposes.
Unless I misuderstood your prior statements in response to my assertions, you have stated that "real motion," as used in relativity, exists in BOTH an ontological (i.e it is not imaginary) AND an epsitemological (motion can really be detected) sense.
All that notwithstanding, and notwithstanding that it took me about 500 posts to wrest some particular position out of you about "real motion," and notwithstanding that your position was just very recently established on this point, you turn right around and NOW say"
"Relativity takes no note of this ontological assumption and does not require it." The equivocation is ceaseless.
I have already addressed this tactic of yours in a recent post which you may not have read yet, but here you are resorting to, once again, the very method by which you continuously evquivocate and try to change the problem, hence the answer, ex post facto.
1. The wiki problem set-up imputes motion (which we both agree is both non-imaginary and detectable) to the spaceship twin
2. I later say that IN THIS PROBLEM, it is the spaceship twin who is deemed to be really moving.
Is your response either "yes," or "no, you read the problem wrong?" Of course not. You make no such response; instead you say:
"THERE IS NO REAL MOTION AS AN ONTOLOGICAL MATTER!!!!!! YOUR STATEMENT IS MEANINGLESS!!!!!!
No one ever tried to make an ontological claim, and yet this is your only response.
Re-read paragraphs 4-6 again. You may have a better sense of what I meant now.
To say a single object it really moving is an incomplete statement, since it has to be really moving in copmparsion to something else. With regard to relativity, it also seems to be referring to an ontological status, and is therefore meaningless within relativity.
When I said "any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion", I expected that it was clear I was not specifying a single rest frame, since "any discription" would include the descriptions from varying rest frames. When you have some description of motion, you can always select a rest frame as the absolute rest frame, so that the description of motion you have is absolute motion with regard to that absolute rest frame.
What motion is considered to be "absolute motion" in the context of relativity theory?
Relativity theory itslef ignores the concept of absolute motion. That's why any description of motion can be treated as if it were absolute: relativity theory doesn't care.
You didn't say in "other, non-relativistic, theories." Is that what you meant to say?
When I refer to relativity theory without a qualifier, I mean SR/GR, which interpretation has broad scientific support. However, you have a relativistic theory, like LET, that also has absolute motion.
Yes, "real motion" can be used in an ontological and an epistemological fashion. That's why I generally don't use the term. However, relativity theory makes no effort to determine whether a motion is ontologically real. The epistemological reality is sufficient.
If you think you read that I said "real motion" is used in relatitivity theory, all I can say is that you must be confusing relativity theory with the concept of relative motion (which again, has an ontological and epistemological interpretation).
It's unfortunate you feel that 500 posts was wasted trying to wrest some definition out of me. Still, any time you expect me to provide definitons for terms that you are using, rather than provide them yourself, that will happen. It's especially unfortunate since I asked you many times if all you meant was a change in inertial reference frames, and you never came out and said "yes, that is what I mean". Of course, direct answers to direct questions has long left our interactions, what with you so busily trying to prove I am beholded to authority figures and all.
Even more ironic, you fall straight back on your NO REAL MOTION claim right after you argue with me that epistemological/ontological distinctions about about "real motion" are basically non-existent in the context of relativity:
One Brow said: "I still don't buy into your distinction between relative and real motion, relative motion is real motion"
One Brow said: "I don't see a distinct between epistemologically apparent motion and real motion."
In response to: "6: "....in the context of relativity theory, the "real/apparent" distinction is NOT ontological; it is merely epistemological," yous said" "From what I can tell, there is no difference in relativity theory at all."
Go figure, eh?
"To say a single object it really moving is an incomplete statement, since it has to be really moving in copmparsion to something else.
I have to once again thank you for your extremely profound insight into the nature of human understanding, but must ask, so what? Whoever claimed otherwise?
2. I later say that IN THIS PROBLEM, it is the spaceship twin who is deemed to be really moving.
Is that the full extent of your claim? That, as some side issue not relevant to the description, they say the ship is really moving? Because I have been under the impression you think that the decision of who is really moving, ontologically, was important to resolving the paradox.
Of course, you would never equivocate your claim into something milder, certainly not after repeatedly complaining about my equivocations. So, I obviously misunderstood. I apologize for thinking that you felt some ontological notion of who was really moving was important to the twin paradox. Of course, saying that one person is really moving is meaningless epistemologically, as we have both agreed.
Unless you carefully define what these supposed constrasts are between relative/absolute and apparent/real, I don't see you salvaging 4.-6. They still read like word salad.
One Brow said: "Relativity theory itslef ignores the concept of absolute motion."
Is there any reason why you said the exact opposite, then?
One Brow said: "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
One Brow said: "When I refer to relativity theory without a qualifier, I mean SR/GR, which interpretation has broad scientific support."
Yes, that has been understood, all along.
I didn't say there was no real motion, I said the concept was not used in an ontological fashion in relativity theory, there is only epistemologically real, relative motion.
"Real" often carries an ontological commitment that reltivity theory does not need nor want.
Whoever claimed otherwise?
You do, every time you describe an object as really moving (stop).
One Brow said: "Relativity theory itslef ignores the concept of absolute motion."
Is there any reason why you said the exact opposite, then?
One Brow said: "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
How are they opposite? The first sentence does not claim the concept is undefinable, just that the defintions are ignored. The second does not say that the description is in any way utilitized.
One Brow said: "If you think you read that I said "real motion" is used in relatitivity theory, all I can say is that you must be confusing relativity theory with the concept of relative motion"
As soon as you agree, you immediately disagree.
In the paradox problem wiki refers to motion
1. Is the motion they are referring to the type which is deemed to by wholly illusory and false (a la Parmenides)?
2. Is the motion they are referring to the type which is undetectable in theory? Are they saying we cannot see the rocket, nor otherwise detect that it is there, blasts off, and "moves" into space.
3. In other words, is this, or is this not, "real motion" in the sense I just spent many posts describing and which you said you agree with?
Your capacity for equivocation and meaningless quibbling is truly astonishing.
Me: Hey, Eric, what time ya got?
You: Time is NOT REAL!
Me. Hmmm, well, lemme ask ya, what town do you live in?
You: Names of towns are NOT REAL, they are merely nominal
Me: Well, that could be, I spoze. Are the Jazz on TV tonight?
You: The phrase "on TV" is absurdly stupid and meaningless
Me: Well, look, Eric, I'm not trying to start some heavy ontological debate, I'm just tryin to get the answer to a few simple questionS.
You: FOOL! EVERY QUESTION IS AN ONTOLOGICAL QUESTION. EVERY STATEMENT IS AN ONTOLOGICAL STATEMENT. YOU WILL NEVER GET ANYTHING BUT AN ONTOLOGICAL ANALYSIS FROM ME REGARDLESS OF THE QUESTION OR THE TOPIC. NOW, GO AWAY, YOU BOTHER ME.
Eric, are you really that determined to avoid giving an honest, good faith answer to any question but rather to evade, deny, and distort, by any means, semantical or otherwise.
Or do you just think I'm that FUCKING STUPID and enjoy making sport with a moron.
Or are you just that FUCKING STUPID?
One Brow said: "In relativity theory, any description of the motion of a body can be considered a description of absolute motion."
How are they opposite? The first sentence does not claim the concept is undefinable, just that the defintions are ignored. The second does not say that the description is in any way utilitized.
Where does the "first sentence say the definitions "are ignored? WHERE?
I but you are saying how "the description of the motion oa a body is "considered" IN RELATIVITY THEORY.
Give up with the bullshit, already, willya?
I've been trying to translate your terms into the ways the terms get used as I understand them. I don't think that is a sport, nor does that make you a moron.
Can realtive motion refer to both something ontological as well as something epistemological? Does that mean relativity theory extends to both areas?
If by real motion you are referring to only epistemologically detectable motion, let me ask you this: are you moving when you are standing still on earth? You can't epistemologically detect the difference between acceleration and being subject to a graviational field. That means if you are in a rocket accelerating at 16 ft/sec/sec, it feels just like you are sitting in a chair on earth. So, in an epistemological manner only, how do you detect which motion is real?
The motion in the twin paradox is real ontologically relative to the earth, but relativity theory doesn't take notice or care about that.
Where does the "first sentence say the definitions "are ignored? WHERE?
"One Brow said: "Relativity theory itslef ignores the concept of absolute motion."
You really didn't see that?
Where does the "first sentence say the definitions "are ignored? WHERE?
"One Brow said: "Relativity theory itslef ignores the concept of absolute motion."
You really didn't see that?
No, sorry, I'm not clarvoyant. I didn't see, at the time a made the comment you were responding to, a post which you were going to make in the future.
More equivocation on the word "see." You want to treat what I "see" today as being the equivalent what I might see" tomorrow. The day after tomorrow, they will be equivalents, eh?
You can take your "inertial frame" and stick it up your ass as far as I'm concerned. Use it all you want, but I'm not going to try to use it to communicate with you. You don't appear to understand it yourself.
You would apparently say, for example, that a guy being crushed from two opposing forces so strong that the graviational portion will age a person by 14 years INSTANTANOUSLY is "not moving" and, therefore presumably in an "inertial frame" by your definition. Good luck with that.
One Brow said: "If by real motion you are referring to only epistemologically detectable motion, let me ask you this: are you moving when you are standing still on earth?"
With respect to the earth? No.
With respect to, say, the sun? Yes, and I can detect that motion.
One Brow said: "That means if you are in a rocket accelerating at 16 ft/sec/sec, it feels just like you are sitting in a chair on earth. So, in an epistemological manner only, how do you detect which motion is real?"
Look out the window and see if you're on earth or in a rocket, eh?
I am standing in front of a door with my blind friend. He can't see the door. Does that mean:
1. That the door in unseeable?
2. That the door is not really there?
One Brow: You really didn't see that?
No, sorry, I'm not clarvoyant. I didn't see, at the time a made the comment you were responding to, a post which you were going to make in the future.
So, even I first made that comment at December 18, 2009 12:59 PM, you quoted it at December 18, 2009 1:15 PM, and I included your quote in a response at December 18, 2009 1:22 PM, that was somehow in the future in your comment at December 18, 2009 1:48 PM? You pull this out just after you ask me if I think you are a moron?
You would apparently say, for example, that a guy being crushed from two opposing forces so strong that the graviational portion will age a person by 14 years INSTANTANOUSLY is "not moving" and, therefore presumably in an "inertial frame" by your definition. Good luck with that.
The aging that comes from a gravitational field increases directly with teh distance. So a very mild field can cause a huge time acceleration many light years distanct. The reason this does not happen with real fields is they follow the inverse square, so the field gets weaker faster than the potential to change time can grow.
You can take your "inertial frame" and stick it up your ass as far as I'm concerned. Use it all you want, but I'm not going to try to use it to communicate with you. You don't appear to understand it yourself.
Thank you for sharing your opinon.
One Brow said: "If by real motion you are referring to only epistemologically detectable motion, let me ask you this: are you moving when you are standing still on earth?"
With respect to the earth? No.
With respect to, say, the sun? Yes, and I can detect that motion.
Are you really moving in the sense that the spaceship twin is really moving?
Look out the window and see if you're on earth or in a rocket, eh?
In relativity theory, it doesn't matter.
I am standing in front of a door with my blind friend. He can't see the door. Does that mean:
1. That the door in unseeable?
2. That the door is not really there?
In relativity theory, it doesn't matter if the metaphorical door is there or not.
Are you claiming that motion cannot be detected? I never said you could necessary WHO was moving, just that you could detect whether there was relative motion between two objects. Are you denying that such motion is detectable, or not?
By "detectable," I am not referring to a particular blind person, but just motion that is detectable in theory, even if an earthworm wouldn't see it.
"Look out the window and see if you're on earth or in a rocket, eh?"
You said: "In relativity theory, it doesn't matter."
What doesn't matter? Our observations?
If I am in a closed-up rocket ship, can someone else tell if I am moving, relative to the earth, it they look up at me, or at both of us, if they are on the moon?
Eric, you keep wanting to make this an ontological discussion because you are apparently anticipating that I may lead there and you want to "head me off at the pass" by just responding to whatever I say with "ABSOLUTE MOTION CAN'T BE DETECTED, ONLY RELATIVE MOTION....WELL, WAIT, NOT EVEN THAT. MOTION CAN'T BE DETECTED, PERIOD!!
My whole question about which twin was posited to be moving in the twin paradox problem had nothing to do with ontology. If and when we get to that point, let's discuss it then. However, if you claim that motion, as such, can't be detected, that is worth discussing now.
If the only "point" you want to make, over and over, is that different things can be seen differently from different perspectives, forget it. We both knew that when we started this discussion.
If you want to discuss the philosophical nature of perception, and take Berkeley's position that "to be is to be perceived," let's just get straight to that issue...it has nothing to do with relativity, or the twin paradox, per se.
Many of the "points" you seem to want to make over and over are by no means unique to relativity theory. I have been trying to discuss the twin paradox, as it relates to SR, but, that aside, if you just want to talk straight philosophy, and forget relativity, we can do that.
Are you denying that such motion is detectable, or not?
Of course relative motion between two objects is detectable. However, motion is not detectable for a single object.
What doesn't matter? Our observations?
It doesn't matter if we call the motion of a single object real or not.
If I am in a closed-up rocket ship, can someone else tell if I am moving, relative to the earth, it they look up at me, or at both of us, if they are on the moon?
They can detect motion reletive to them on the moon, or two objects in relative moiton to each other.
Eric, you keep wanting to make this an ontological discussion
Just the opposite, I want to keep this discussion epistemological, cutting off any notion that a single object can be considered moving without reference to another object.
Many of the "points" you seem to want to make over and over are by no means unique to relativity theory. I have been trying to discuss the twin paradox, as it relates to SR, but, that aside, if you just want to talk straight philosophy, and forget relativity, we can do that.
I'm happy to talk straight relativity. However, if you keep bringing in a foreign vocabulary, that makes it more complicated.
One Brow said: "Just the opposite, I want to keep this discussion epistemological, cutting off any notion that a single object can be considered moving without reference to another object."
Eric, this is just your usual strawman approach. You impute a claim that was never made to your opponent, say that (non-existent) claim is false, and that therefore the whole argument must be false.
Show me one time where I have said anything which either: (1) expressly claimed, or (2) necessarily implied that there is some way to impute detectable motion to a body without any regard whatsover so any other object. I make, and have made, no such claims.
Is it your opinion that wiki article implicitly makes such claims? Does any statement whatsoever about motion make such claims? If I say that E is moving relative to S, is such a claim somehow unavoidably being made? Where do you even get such a notion?
Your "logic" appears to be along these (Parmenidean) lines:
Say I a pick up a bat at hit a baseball with it. The space between instantly begins to expand. After some time passage, the space stops expanding, and the baseball and I are 300 feet apart. Is you logic this:
1. You can't say the baseball moved away from me.
2. You can't say I moved away from the baseball
3. Therefore...what?
4. Neither can be said to have moved, so there is no motion to be observed. The appearance of motion is merely an illusion?
If neither can be said to be moving, then neither can be said to have moved, and, if neither moved, you cannot possibly claim that there is such a thing as motion, that the idea?
I would like to await your answer, but, if you have even the least bit of awareness of the implications of things you have already said, you should be able to see where this is going anyway, so I will answer for you.
Eric: No, I'm not sayin there is no such thing as motion. I'm only saying what I have already said 100 times: You can't say there is any motion if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe.
Me: Is that motion, let's call it "relative motion," that you just said existed "real" and not just illusory?
Eric: Yes, I would say it's real, but let me just add this: You can't say there is any motion if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe.
Me: Understood. But the relative motion BETWEEN two objects is "real," you say. Right"
Eric: Right, but let me just add this: You can't say there is any motion if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe.
Me: Understood. Now, if there is real relative motion between the two objects, them at least one of them must be really moving, right?
Eric: NO! NO! How many times do I have to tell you!? You CAN"T say there is any motion if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe. If you try to say one of them is really moving, then you are trying to say that you CAN say there is any motion even if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe. As I have repeatedly said, you CAN'T do that!
That seems to be your reasoning. Of course it could be some other reasoning that I just couldn't imagine.
Eric: You can ONLY say that they are moving relative to each. Beyond that, NOTHING can be said. Going beyond that would be unspeakable, and would entail the fallacious notion that can say there is motion even if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe.
Me: Could I say that they are both moving?
Eric: Well, I suppose, because you would then at least be talking about two objects, not just one.
Me: Could I say that neither is moving?
Eric: Well, I suppose, because you would then at least be talking about two objects, not just one. But that would be patently false because I have already said there is real motion between them.
Me: Could I say that, as between the two of them, one is really at rest, and the other is really moving?
Eric: NO! NO! How many times do I have to tell you!? You CAN"T say there is any motion if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe. If you try to say that only one of them is really moving, then you are trying to say that you CAN say there is motion even if you consider only one object, in isolation from all other things in the universe. As I have repeatedly said, you CAN'T do that!
Where do you even get such a notion?
From you, talking about whether E or S is really moving.
So, was there anything else you wanted to discuss besides your dedication to misleading vocabulary?
One Brow said:
Where do you even get such a notion?
From you, talking about whether E or S is really moving.
So, was there anything else you wanted to discuss besides your dedication to misleading vocabulary?
If you can't see why that notion is mistakenly taken from the "evidence" you cited, and don't care to see it, then can be no meaningful discussion on this subject. You are not interested in discussion, you are only interested in devoutly upholding the misconceptions you have taken incorporated from an uncritical analysis of relativity. You have been told that THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE MOTION, ALL MOTION IS RELATIVE, and you are faithful to that notion, as you misperceive it. But you don't understand what was intended by this claim, and in what sense it was intended, from those you have read on the topic.
You: Bob is a year older than his brother, Jim.
Me: Really? I have always thought Jim was a year older than Bob.
You: You are incorrect, Bob is older than Jim.
Me: What year was Bob born?
You: I told you, Bob is older than Jim.
Me: Well, that's what I'm trying to understand.
You: Understand this: Bob is older than Jim.
Me: What year was Jim born?
You: Are you fuckin deaf!? I told you: BOB IS OLDER THAN JIM!
Me: If you can't even say what year each was born in, how can you know that?
You: Christ, you ARE deaf, aren't you!? I know, because BOB IS OLDER THAN JIM. You're really stupid, aren't you? This discussion is over! Fool.
Well, it's awfully nice of you to tell me what I do and don't understand, and why. That makes it so much easier for me than figuring what I think for myself.
Seriously, I think scientific jargon serves a specific purpose, and is often specifically designed to create a specific mindset to discuss the theory. I learned this jargon in the classroom as a way of thinking about what the science itself can and can not say. I think it is impossible to have a critical analysis of relativity without being able to converse in that language. Language forms a map or landscape for the thought in your mind. When the language is sloppy, so are the thoughts in that language.
We can certainly try to have a critical discussion of relativity, what it says, etc., with sloppy language, but it's not likely to be productive, as various terms will start tripping over their connotations that say something other than what we mean.
Cooperstown, New York, December 20. 2010 (AP)
ALL BASEBALL RECORDS STRICKEN, ALL FUTURE GAMES CANCELLED
Baseball officials have decided to strike all baseball "records" as being inconclusive and meaningless. Furthermore, after realizing the absolute impossibility of coming to any decisive conclusions about the results of any future games, the entire game of baseball has been discontintued.
This decision was made after an amateur scientist brought the claims and speculations of Albert Einstein, universally-acknowledged scientific genius, to the attention of league officials. The claims in question, made in a seldom-cited, often disputed, paper written in 1918, carry necesessary implications which show that, as a scientific matter, no umpire would ever be in a position to make a correct call, and hence that all heretofore accepted "results" of games, as well as events occuring within games, are in fact unreliable.
"Take the case of what appears to be a bottom-of-the-ninth, game winning home run," Commissioner Bud Selig said. "For all we can know with certainty, the batter never even hit the ball, and he should have been called out for strike three, instead of being awarded a home run."
Selig elaborated on Einstien's scientific conclusions as follows" "For all we know at the very instant the bat appeared to hit the ball, what in fact happened was that God intervened to deceive all observers. HE put out his invisible hand and stopped the ball in it's tracks. At the same time, he turned on an invisible gravitational field which pulled the stadium down, and then up, giving the false appearence that the ball went up, then came down. This same force field also pulled the whole staduium backwards, away from the ball. Thus, at the very moment when the ball appeared to land in the stands for a home run, in fact it never moved at all."
======
I asked: "If I put one clock on a fast travelling plane, and if it comes back slow, is that not, in itself, a way to detect instrinic, non-relative motion and impute it to the clock on the plane?"
You answered: "No, it isn't. If you adopt a coordinate system where the plane does not move, you still get the same reult back in terms of hwo the claocks read."
And you have the temerity to accuse intelligent design proponents of being "unscientific!?" Go figure, eh?
Einstien's "resolution" to the paradox doesn't even resolve it. It in fact ratifies and affirms the paradox.
But that's not even the worst part. Einstien's example in K' patently equivocates between the "real" facts, and the (false, deluded) impressions of the "travelling" twin, when pretending that it's meaningful that those two, radically different views (on false, one true), would agree. But the "truth" would not agree with the "truth" in his own example.
If the badly deluded "free falling" twin were later informed of the "truth" about the actual appearance of a gravitational field, his calculations would NOT agree with those of his "non-moving" twin (i.e., the TRUE facts).
Anyone who thinks this is a resolution of the paradox, using GR, has been played. Like, BIGTIME, ya know?
One Brow said: "I think it is impossible to have a critical analysis of relativity without being able to converse in that language."
I am simply trying to look at a simple, fundamental notion, like "motion," without resort to technical defintions which both (1) presume to already know (rather than explain) what motion is, and then to (3) compound that definition of motion with other extraneous and ambiguous notions like "external force," "straight line," and "uniform."
If you can't do that, stay away from any analyitical discussion and just stick to your math books and math "formulas," eh, Eric?
"Take the case of what appears to be a bottom-of-the-ninth, game winning home run," Commissioner Bud Selig said. "For all we can know with certainty, the batter never even hit the ball, and he should have been called out for strike three, instead of being awarded a home run."
Selig was later asked why he would think the two situations are equally plausible. He said: "Believe me, I rejected this absurd suggestion at first. But then I discovered that it has been unquestionably and irrefutably proven MATHEMATICALLY! The math is the same, either way, see?"
After true GR has been considered, the kinematic time dilation it postulates remains as just that, dilational effect due to motion. It predicts them, on an asymmetrical basis, and we think this predicted asymmetry has been experimentally confirmed.
There is no twin paradox, but not for the reasons given in wiki. Wiki said: "How can an absolute effect (one twin really does age less) result from a relative motion? Hence it is called a paradox."
Absolute effects do NOT result from relative motion. They result from ABSOLUTE, not relative, motion hence no paradox.
In this sense, "absolute motion" is not determined by comparing one thing to empty space, and that is NOT the sense in which "absolute" is being used. It is used by comparing one thing to another with respect to which one thing is absolutely ("really") going at a higher rate of relative speed to another that is absolutely goint at a lower rate of speed than the other.
Call it absolute relative motion, if you want. Whatever you call it, the theory predicts it the same way. The only thing the theory does to undermine itself is to couple it's own verified predictions with the ontological and philosophical claim that "no frame of reference can be preferred over another, all are "equally valid," with the implication that each object is indeed moving faster than the other. Such a claim has great emotional appeal to PC advocates, but that doesn't make it logically correct or accurate.
There is no logical contradiction between these two statements:
1. Objects do not move. The appearance of motion is merely the result of space expanding, contracting, or remaining the same, as the particular case may suggest.
2. Space does not really expand or contract. This appearance is merely the result of objects moving with respect to each other.
A contradication would only arise if you said that BOTH 1 and 2 were the full and complete explanation for the same particular phemonenon (hitting a ball with a bat at 1:00 P.M. today, for example).
I said: "A contradication would only arise if you said that BOTH 1 and 2 were the full and complete explanation for the same particular phemonenon (hitting a ball with a bat at 1:00 P.M. today, for example)."
In contrast, no contradiction would be present if you merely said: Person A is under the impression that case 1 fully explains the phenomenon, while Person B is under the impression that case 2 fully explains the phenomenon.
Both could be wrong. One could be wrong, and the other right. But BOTH cannot be RIGHT (except in the subjective, "right for me," sense of "right").
Me: I don't know anything at all about what is right and wrong, pre se, but I do KNOW this to be a stonecold fact!: Nothing is ever right, and nothing is ever wrong, in any absolute sense.
You: Is what you just said either right or wrong, in any absolute sense?
Me: Of course, it is absolutely true, a stonecold fact, like I just said! Are you deaf?
"Me: If you can't even say what year each was born in, how can you know that?"
I told you, BOB IS OLDER THAN JIM. Can't you even do simple math, you idiot? You don't even know to ask, or know, what year either of them was born. Whatever year Jim was born in, Bob was born the year before, get that? Are you that stupid, or just another damn DENIALIST?
Edit: "You don't even need [not "know"] to ask, or know, what year either of them was born."
I said: "A contradication would only arise if you said that BOTH 1 and 2 were the full and complete explanation for the same particular phemonenon (hitting a ball with a bat at 1:00 P.M. today, for example)."
Likewise, no contradiction would arise if you said explanation 1 applied at 1:00 P.M and explanation 2 applied at 1:30 P.M. Implausible, maybe, but not a contradiction.
I said: "You would apparently say, for example, that a guy being crushed from two opposing forces so strong that the graviational portion will age a person by 14 years INSTANTANOUSLY is "not moving" and, therefore presumably in an "inertial frame" by your definition. Good luck with that."
You responded: "The aging that comes from a gravitational field increases directly with teh distance. So a very mild field can cause a huge time acceleration many light years distanct. The reason this does not happen with real fields is they follow the inverse square, so the field gets weaker faster than the potential to change time can grow."
Your response makes no sense whatsoever. You tried to make some similar distinction earlier, when you said: "For ordinary gravitational fields, the strenght of the field is inversely propotional to the square of the distance, so the overall effect around a planet is the the effects weaken the further you are from the planet. In the twin scenario, inverse-square law does not apply, and the compression effects of the gravitational fields are stonger the further away you are."
You are apparently trying to make some distinction between "ordinary" gravitational fields and "special" fields where the "inverse-square law" is presumably reversed? The "psuedo" gravitational fields invoked by Einstein are not called "psuedo" because they are of a fundamentally different type, as far as I know. If they are, then that just makes the whole "resolution" that much more absurd. They are "psuedo" because there is on mass to account for them, just the theoretical "equivalence" of acceleration and gravitation. As I understand it, experience with high speed particle accelators have repeatedly proven that acceleration has nothing to due with time dilation effects, whether it (acceleration) is in some other theoretical aspects "equivalent" to gravitation, or not.
I really don't care about the details, but I think your reliance on such claptrap, especially in light of the repeated statements of the physicists presenting them that they are bullshit, just shows how unscrupulous (and I don't mean that ethically) you are in trying to advance any argument, however weak and fallacious, that you can to support your preferred conclusions.
It's very interesting that you are arguing for there being a single single interpretation to the data here, but were arguing so vociferously about there being multiple interpretations in biology.
With regard to your baseball analogy, there is one difference: the location of the ball itself. If it was strike three, it will be behind home plate at least briefly, if it was a home run, it won't. However, in relativity theory, with respect to deciding which item is moving, you don't have the equivalent information. It's like trying to discuss whether it was a strike or a home run from a picture of the ball as it leaves teh pitcher's hand, before the batter has started to swing. All of the metaphors in the world aren't going to put into the theory what is not there, and your disbelief will not change that.
Of course, there are other ways in physics to tell where the metaphorical ball is, or more directly, why it is the spaceship/plane that moved and not the planet/earth. These methods are not in relativity theory, are not a part of it, and are not needed to see, explain, or measure the time differentials. Relativity theory is not all of physics, after all. Frankly, I would (and do) find it highly unscientific to claim that within relativity theory you can tell whether the earth or the plane moved, since relativity theory gives you the exact same answer either way, as long as their intertial experiences are identical. I/m surprised that, when the theory predicts teh identical results for two different situations, you think that the theory can somehow tell the difference between them anyhow. You are usually much clearer in your thinking.
I have no idea what you mean by the twins calculations disagreeing. Both twins can make teh same calculations from each other's point of view.
While it would be a contradiction to say two different things were *the* full and complete explanation, it is certainly not acontradiction to say that both *can be* a full and complete explanation, and that any reason prefer one reason over the other would need ot arise from outside a given theory.
In Einstein's discussion of the K' coordinate system, the inverse square law in not reversed, it is merely absent.
Nothing that I am saying is in disconcert with the the "repeated statements of physicists".
Depending on the interpretation, acceleration does not necessarily involve time dilation or compression. I am curious to which articles you were referring, though.
One Brow said: "With regard to your baseball analogy, there is one difference: the location of the ball itself. If it was strike three, it will be behind home plate at least briefly"
Naw, the ball can be rollin in the dirt and never even reach home plate. A swing and a miss is a strike, ya know?
One Brow said: "Frankly, I would (and do) find it highly unscientific to claim that within relativity theory you can tell whether the earth or the plane moved, since relativity theory gives you the exact same answer either way, as long as their intertial experiences are identical. I/m surprised that, when the theory predicts teh identical results for two different situations, you think that the theory can somehow tell the difference between them anyhow."
The math isn't inconsistent, the accompanying ontological assumptions are inconsistent with the math, that's all. Like I done said: "The only thing the theory does to undermine itself is to couple it's own verified predictions with the ontological and philosophical claim that "no frame of reference can be preferred over another, all are "equally valid," with the implication that each object is indeed moving faster than the other."
The clock on the plane does what it does, whether SR predicts it or not. Relativity theory doesn't determine the events, but the events have been interpreted in such a way as to expose the philosophical flaw which relativists try to import into the theory.
One Brow said: "Nothing that I am saying is in disconcert with the the "repeated statements of physicists".
Ya think?
"The Equivalence Principle analysis of the twin paradox does not use any real gravity, and so does not use any General Relativity."
"General Relativity is the study of real gravitational fields, not pseudo ones, so it has nothing to say about the twin paradox."
"...it needs to be emphasised that we are not using any actual General Relativity here, and no one ever needs to, to analyse the paradox."
"The usual version of the twin paradox qualifies as a pure SR problem by modern standards. Spacetime is ordinary flat Minkowski spacetime."
"Some people claim that the twin paradox can or even must be resolved only by invoking General Relativity (which is built on the Equivalence Principle). This is not true."
"..the Principle of Equivalence then implies time dilation for gravitational fields. A stunning achievement, but irrelevant to the twin paradox."
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_paradox.html
"The Twin Paradox: The "General Relativity" Explanation: Calling this the "General Relativity Explanation" raises some people's hackles; I'll say why below. That's why "General Relativity" is in quotes, and why "gravitational" is in scare-quotes for much of this entry."
http://www2.corepower.com:8080/~relfaq/twin_gr.html
Scare-quotes, eh? Raises hackles, eh? Go figure.
One Brow said: "I am curious to which articles you were referring, though."
Not sure which point you're referring to...this help?:
"That acceleration does not produce changes in time is well known. Time dilation of particles moving in circular particle accelerators can be
precisely calculated by using only the velocities and completely ignoring the acceleration.
This also is clear in the so called twin paradox. The time dilation of the traveling twin cannot be explained by acceleration."
http://www.timephysics.com/acceleration-and-twin-paradox.html
More technical, but says the same thing as I read it:
"...you can figure out the time dilation using just Special Relativity from the point of view of the lab frame, in which one of the samples is moving quickly and the other is at rest....The acceleration of the muons around the ring in the 1966 experiment I have access to in this context was 5x10**20 cm/sec**2, or 5x10^17 times that of gravity (a trillion times more than you suggest)! No effect was seen (Farley, 1966). More precise measurements have been made since, and here at the University of Illinois, we have some of the world’s experts. They have measured the time dilation factor due to the fact that the muons are moving to a few parts per million, with no evidence for any additional effect from the acceleration."
http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=12844
Thank you for correcting my baseball ignorance.
The claim you refer to as ontological is acutally merely empirical. It is a claim that no preferred reference frame can be detected. the results of relativity theory don't need such a preferred frame. When I say that, in a Pat/Chris scenario, each can be seen as younger than the other, depending on teh point of view, it's an empirical statement, and the need to include a point-of-view reference should make that clear.
Ya, ah think. Which of those quotes do you think disagrees with what I have been saying? What do you claim is the nature of the disagreement?
That last web page you listed says it is possible to perform the calculations without referencing acceleration. I think that should always be true. As I noted, it is often a matter of interpretation. Interestingly, it also claims all motion is explainable as an expansion of space. Weren't you making fun of that notion earlier? That's pretty selective of you, using a source you don't credit.
One Brow said: "I have no idea what you mean by the twins calculations disagreeing. Both twins can make teh same calculations from each other's point of view."
This is why the technique of equivocation can be so effective in convincing people who don't spot it. Calculating something from the "other's point of view" is NOT the same as calculating it with respect to the "true" (posited) facts.
You didn't seem to have any trouble comprehending what "motion" was when declaring that the results are the same even when the earth twin is "not moving." All the wiki example presuppose two radically different things:
1) That each twin will "see" the other's clock as moving slower
2) That each twin will "calculate" that one had aged more than the other, all illusory appearances aside.
The "calculations" in those example are at least premised upon the same, mutually agreed upon, "true situation." They do not compare the truth, on one hand, with the illusions of one of the twins on the other, as Einstein does.
I made a number of points about Einstein's resolution of the paradox which I don't think you ever really responded to (other than to flatly re-assert your conclusions).
1. Do you understand that Einstein is NOT using GR to answer a GR question? That is not the point of his exercise, and he gives no GR answer to a simple question about motion to a star and back. He is not even trying to do that. He is trying to "resolve a paradox," that's all. Straightforward GR merely give you a huge time gap.
2. Even if he was, to say that GR gives the same answer as SR is simply to reaffirm the paradox, if you think it through. As I said:
"Now, you have been claiming that GR gives the same solution as SR. Let's assume that's actually true.
If, in SR, you assumed the ship twin was the one moving, then SR would say the ship twin was 5.14 years younger, and, if you are right, then GR would agree! But, alas...
If, in SR, you assumed the earth twin was the one moving, then SR would say the earth twin was 5.14 years younger, and, if you are right, then GR would agree! GR does not solve the paradox."
This realization also helps expose the equivocation implicit in Einstein's "resolution." He is merely contrasting two completely different sets of circumstances in order to get the "same" answer. The fact that I can get the answer "10" by either 2 + 8 or 3 + 7, does NOT make 2 = 3, and 8 = 7.
One Brow said: "That last web page...also claims all motion is explainable as an expansion of space. Weren't you making fun of that notion earlier? That's pretty selective of you, using a source you don't credit."
I don't remember that part, but not sure what you mean by failing to give credit. Relativity itself basically uses the notion of the expansion/contraction of space to explain motion, don't it? Nuthin new there. A guy blinks, and a distance of 5 light years has suddenly contracted to only 2.5 light years, remember?
The whole argument goes way back to Parmenides and Zeno. Why Einstein would try to claim that acceleration is "real" is still a mystery. How could he ever know that? How could he ever know there was such a thing as "motion" when the contraction of space can explain it all without any object ever moving one inch?
1) is only correct on the outbound journey. When the ship returns to the planet, the shipboard twin will see the earth clock preceed much faster than his clock, while the earth twin still sees the ship twin's clock as moving more slowly. Do you think agree with that?
Since your presumption in 1) may have been incorrect, I won't comment on your position 2) unitl I am sure what you mean in 1).
To my understanding, GR was not even developed when Einstein first derived the Equivalence Principle (EP) explanation of the K' coordinate system, so I agree GR, per se, was not use. However, the EP is foundation to GR and technically not a part of SR, so you can loosely call call the EP explanation 'the GR explanation' and there is no opportunity for confusion. I do understand if you find this imprecise.
Why do you think you can frame the paradox as "the ship twin was moving" or "the earth twin was moving"? Those describe highly different situations. Why should they have the same answer? Where's the paradox?
Relativity itself basically uses the notion of the expansion/contraction of space to explain motion, don't it?
I'm not aware that relativity explains motion to any degree at all.
How could he ever know there was such a thing as "motion" when the contraction of space can explain it all without any object ever moving one inch?
For relativity theory, I'm believe that is not relevant.
I said: "Calculating something from the "other's point of view" is NOT the same as calculating it with respect to the "true" (posited) facts."
We are standing opposite each other with a coin being held between us. I see heads, you see tails, and yet it supposed to be the same damn coin!
The only possible conclusion--everything is a mere illusion, there is no truth!
An obviously fallacy. In this case, a serious question would arise (assuming a normal coin) ONLY IF we both saw the same thing. That's why there is a "serious question" about Einstein's "resolution."
One Brow said: "1) is only correct on the outbound journey. When the ship returns to the planet, the shipboard twin will see the earth clock preceed much faster than his clock, while the earth twin still sees the ship twin's clock as moving more slowly. Do you think agree with that?"
This is just more equivocation involving the word "see," and I don't care to go through it all again. What one supposedly "sees" with the doppler effect analysis is not what he "sees" with respect to relativity theory calculations (which already presupposes the effects of the doppler shift, via the Lorentz transformations, according to some). I don't care to get into more semantical wordplay involving equivocation. We've already done that. Just think it through, eh?
But since you're on the topic, here's what the outgoing twin "sees" in the GR analysis, eh?:
"The Outbound reference frame says: "At the same time that Stella makes her turnaround, Terence's clock reads about two months." The Inbound reference frame says: "At the same time that Stella makes her turnaround, Terence's clock reads about 13 years and 10 months." The apparent "gap" is just an accounting error, caused by switching from one frame to another."
She "sees" his calendar (not his clock) jump 13 years at the very same second she "sees" it not jump. This "inbound" vs "outbound" frame analysis is purty convincin, no doubt. It's just that I aint no CPA, so how could I know?
I clean left out other things she "sees" though, eh?
"During the Outbound Leg, Terence ages less than two months, according to Stella. During the Inbound Leg, Terence also ages less than two months, according to Stella, by the same computation."
4 months vs. 14 years---aint no difference, really, eh? Just an accounting error, that's all.
One Brow said: "Which of those quotes do you think disagrees with what I have been saying? What do you claim is the nature of the disagreement?"
Among other things, it seems you don't realize that there is no "GR solution" to the twin paradox and that any suggestion to the contrary is pure bullsit,
How could he ever know there was such a thing as "motion" when the contraction of space can explain it all without any object ever moving one inch?
You said: "For relativity theory, I'm believe that is not relevant."
Hmmmm?
Of course it isn't, although it might raise questions about Einstien's rigor and consistency when trying to impose a philosophical view upon a physical theory. Why should he believe that inertia involves "uniform motion" when uniform motion can't be detected? Why not conclude that uniform motion cannot be used as a basis for any explanation, because it is undetectable, just like absolute motion?
I said: "Relativity itself basically uses the notion of the expansion/contraction of space to explain motion, don't it?"
You replied: "I'm not aware that relativity explains motion to any degree at all."
I'm not sure it does either, it merely presupposes motion (in such basic concepts as interia, for example). But what happened above? Did I suddenly "move" 2.5 light years closer, or was the appearance of me suddenly getting closer to the distant star "truly" just a matter of space contracting?
Or was it both, maybe, eh?
I said: "Einstien's "resolution" to the paradox doesn't even resolve it. It in fact ratifies and affirms the paradox.
But that's not even the worst part."
I then went on to address the equivocation aspect of the argument, which might seem to imply that the equivocation was the "worst part." But it aint, bad as it is. I feel embarrassed for Einstien that he advanced the argument as a genuine resolution of paradox on the basis such weak and self-defeating "logic," but that still aint the worst part.
The worst part is his totally unscientific reliance on the "Dahlmer et his sorry ass" line of argument. To advance, as a purportedly legitimate scientific argument, that an absurd, alternate set of circumstances for which circumstances we have no reasonable basis to believe exists, as an "explanation" is just inexcusable for a scientist (as opposed, to, say, a "crank").
With such a suggestion all pretext that his own theory could be in any way valid goes straight out the window, too, yet he seems quite willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. That dirty water (the paradox) is just to repulsive for him to tolerate, so he abandons all caution and common sense in his attempt to dispose of it.
Strong apriori philosophical convictions have been known to have that effect before, but still... Al simply shamed himself in his fanatical devotion to his ontology, I'm afraid. He shoulda left the deux ex machina to authors of fiction, ya know?
I said: "Calculating something from the "other's point of view" is NOT the same as calculating it with respect to the "true" (posited) facts."
Of course. I can caluclate from my point of view with true posited facts, or I can calculate from my point of view without true posited facts. I can calculatre from your point of view with true posited facts, or I can calculate from your point of view without true posited facts. Why you think this is relevant to this discussion is rather mysterious.
What one supposedly "sees" with the doppler effect analysis is not what he "sees" with respect to relativity theory calculations (which already presupposes the effects of the doppler shift, via the Lorentz transformations, according to some). I don't care to get into more semantical wordplay involving equivocation.
Then don't use "see" when you mean calculate, or if you absolutely have to use "see" when you mean calculate, use some other word for teh evidence of the eyes, like view. Using the same word for both is your equivocaiton, not mine. Still, to help out with this, I will refrain from using "see" at all until you choose a meaning for it.
When on the return journey, Stella observes Terences clock advancing quickly compared to hers on the return journey. This is true whether she calculates from Terence's point of view or whether she calculates it from the point of view where she is stationary. From the point of veiw where she is stationary, she will calculate Terence to age suddenly at turn-around due to the gravitational effects and age slowly on the return trip, but she will observe him aging rapidly and evenly throughout the return trip.
Among other things, it seems you don't realize that there is no "GR solution" to the twin paradox and that any suggestion to the contrary is pure bullsit,
Really? I suggest you re-read "To my understanding, GR was not ... if you find this imprecise." and explain to me how that equates to my thinking there is a GR solution, in your mind. I am at a loss to explain it.
I don't know what you mean by uniform motion, so I can't say whether relativity theory posits it can be detected or not? Do you mean intertial motion? Because relativity theory considers that to be detectable.
You'll have to refresh my memory further. I don't think a traveler ever sees the distances he needs to travel change based on changes to his inertial environment. I think we might have confused different concepts in an earlier discussion of this, though.
Sorry, but I see no particular shame in Einstein treating certain forces as real for the purposes of switching coordinate systems. It's standard physics.
Einstien attempts to justify this approach as follows:
"There are several reasons that compel us to willingly accept the complications that the theory leads us to. In the first place, it means for a man who maintains consistency of thought a great satisfaction to see that the concept of absolute motion, to which kinematically no meaning can be attributed, does not have to enter physics..."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialog_about_objections_against_the_theory_of_relativity
He is "compelled" to accept such "complications" (that's putting it mildly, eh?) to get the "great satisfaction" of keeping the concept of absolute motion out of physics, he says, eh? He must have felt one hell of a "compulsion" in order to resort to magically appearing and disappearing opposing forces which appear ad hoc as an "explanation" which fails anyway, eh?
I used to think my hate for Chrissy Paul couldn't be outdone by anyone, but I am now forced to admit that Einstien's hate for absolute motion probably takes the prize, ya know?
One Brow said: "Why you think this is relevant to this discussion is rather mysterious."
You completely miss the point, which is far from obscure. I don't know why the relevance is so mysterious to you.
I can calculate your bank balance to be $1,000,000 just as easily as I can my own to be $0, but I will be making a mistake if I go write $1,000,000 in checks to all the bars in town based on what I calculate YOUR balance to be, eh?
Of course no one would ever make that kind of mistake, well, unless maybe they had a paradox they were determined to disprove, or sumthin.
One Brow said: "Really? I suggest you re-read "To my understanding, GR was not ... if you find this imprecise." and explain to me how that equates to my thinking there is a GR solution, in your mind. I am at a loss to explain it."
I suggest that you re-read about 300 posts, if you're at such a loss. Your latest "revision" does not abolish tons of posts that I responded to before.
But, just to get this straight, do you now acknowledge that that any suggestion to the contrary is pure bullshit?
One Brow said: "Do you mean intertial motion? Because relativity theory considers that to be detectable."
Yeah, uniform motion in a straight line free from the influence of external forces. You can't comprehend "inertial motion" without first positing "uniform motion."
Of course then you have to also detect the absence of forces, the existence of a straight line, and the faithful adherence of an object to the path followed by that line, etc. Lots of "detections" to do, all for sumthin that is "undetectable" to begin with, aint it?
One Brow said: "You'll have to refresh my memory further. I don't think a traveler ever sees the distances he needs to travel change based on changes to his inertial environment."
Wiki, "specific example:"
"Consider a space ship traveling from Earth to the nearest star system outside of our solar system: a distance d = 4.45 light years away, at a speed v = 0.866c (i.e., 86.6 percent of the speed of light). The Earth-based mission control reasons about the journey this way (for convenience in this thought experiment the ship is assumed to immediately attain its full speed upon departure):...The ship's crew members also calculate the particulars of their trip from their perspective... In their rest frame the distance between the Earth and the star system is εd = 0.5d = 2.23 light years (length contraction), for both the outward and return journeys."
Well, there ya have it then, eh? 4.45 light years cut to 2.225 light years instanteously. Did they suddenly "move" a distance of 2.225 light years to get closer, or did the space really just cut contract to half it's size (for them alone)?
One Brow said: "Sorry, but I see no particular shame in Einstein treating certain forces as real for the purposes of switching coordinate systems. It's standard physics."
Standard physics to say "Dahlmer done et his sorry ass," eh? It's one thing to say that the difference between acceleration cannot be detected if you are deprived of the apparent means (observation) to do so. Even this is not true, from what I understand, but that's another story.
It's another to say, now, that acceleration IS gravitation because gravitation "causes" time compression, and I want acceleration to do the same trick for me (which it doesn't). So, then, what IS, and is known to be, acceleration, is said to actually BE gravitation due to the intervention of God. Well, even if it aint God doin it, God coulda done it, so, all said and done, it has to be God doin it, see? Why? Because that's the way I WANT it to be. What other reason could you possibly ask for or expect?
As Billy Lyons done learned, courtesy of Stagger Lee, the mere fact that in can be hard, in the dark, to detect the difference between two dice that say 8 and two that say 7, don't make 8 no 7. Case ya aint heard the tale, here's the gist:
Stagger Lee, he shot Billy....
Awww, he shot that po boy so dead....
That the cap went through Billy,
And then through the bartender's head....
The lead-in, eh?:
Stagger Lee, he went home...
Loaded up his big-ass Fotty-fo
Went to the barroom and sez....
Billy, yo gunna pay that debt you owe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAmDxxLV_vw
One Brow said: "When I say that, in a Pat/Chris scenario, each can be seen as younger than the other, depending on teh point of view, it's an empirical statement, and the need to include a point-of-view reference should make that clear."
You don't need a "point-of-view reference" to agree with what I said (which you didn't agree with). What you have here called "empirical" is simply what I would have called "epistemological," which you said you couldn't really understand. But your view as expressed here makes it clear that you are taking an essentially ontological view, not an "empirical" one.
You absolutely rejected my conditional (ontological) claims. You were therefore taking an opposing ontological view, not an "empirical" one.
Here's my claim:
1. Unless motion is merely illusory, then either P or C is really moving, if not both. Relative to Chris, Pat may be going 0, while Chris is going .5c, Pat may be going .1c, while Chris is going .4c, etc. We don't know which one is going faster, relative to the other, but we know one is, unless they just coincidentally happen to both be going .25c (if the relative total difference is .5c).
2. Given the dictates of SR, whichever one is going faster than the other will be younger (for the time in which he is going faster, at least).
It's just that simple, and it doesn't depend on a "point of view" in the context of SR.
A couple of "empirical" considerations:
1. I put a coin on the table in front of you, heads up, while your eyes are closed. Even if you don't know which side is up, and guess tails, it's still heads up the whole time.
2. You open your eyes, and see heads. That doesn't mean the coin doesn't also have a tails side, just because you don't see it.
I don't have to know which one is going faster to know that one is (if their speeds aren't equal). The fact that both may see it differently is irrelevant (again, SR makes this clear, for time dilation purposes). Both may "think" that the other is younger, but at least one of them is simply wrong. If they are moving at equal rates of speed, relative to each other, then they are BOTH wrong (because neither is younger than the other). None of these conditional conclusions compels me to adopt a particular frame of reference, and none depend on knowing either of the following:
1. Their "absolute" speeds, vis-a-vis motionless "space," or
2. Which one really is going faster than the other (relative to each other).
To deny that either can "really" be going faster is simply to deny the premises and conclusions of all the wiki "explanations." There is, and will be according to SR, a real, asymmetrical time dilation difference, depending on which one is "really" moving faster. In those examples, we know which one that is, because we concede that one has been accelerated.
But we wouldn't have to "know" which one had been accelerated to know which one's clock ended up slower. We just make a simple observation, when they are re-united. Once we know that, we can simply deduce which one was moving faster than the other during the separation. That said, the fact that one was moving faster doesn't depend on us observing it, either, just as the coin on the table being heads doesn't depend on whether you see it.
In short, I think you have confused an epistemological deficiency with an ontological fact. These are two entirely different statements:
1. (Epistemological) We don't (or even, "can't") know which one is moving faster.
2. (Ontological) Neither can be moving faster.
To conflate the two is to conclude that because we can't know which one is moving faster, that means that neither can be moving faster. It equates what we know, or can know (epistemological questions), with ontological status.
The same sort of categorical mistake is being made if one says, for example:
1. Since we can't always know the difference between gravity and acceleration, there can be no difference, and the two are in fact equivalent.
2. Since we cannot know if there is a truly stationary point (a motionless ether, for example) there can be no such point.
These are just variations on the "since we cannot know which of two things is really moving, neither can really be moving" conclusion.
Why not just go the whole hog? "Since we cannot necessarily know if we are in motion, there can be no motion."
Because there is simply no end to it, mebbe? Since we cannot know if, rather than there being motion, space is just expanding, space cannot be expanding. Ad infinitum until you reach the Parmenidean "all is being, there is no becoming, and all appearance of becoming is false" conclusion. There can be nothing (except Being, for Parmenides, but why even say that, ya know?).
Of course no one would ever make that kind of mistake, well, unless maybe they had a paradox they were determined to disprove, or sumthin.
Which explanations do you see as making that mistake?
Your latest "revision" does not abolish tons of posts that I responded to before.
There was and has been no revisions, just a restatement. GR has much more than SR and EP, and you don't need any of that.
But, just to get this straight, do you now acknowledge that that any suggestion to the contrary is pure bullshit?
Any suggestion that you need the full tensor calculus machinery of GR for the twin paradox is nonesense, absolutely. SR does quite nicely, and if you want to examine a particular point of view, you need a couple of additional add-ons that derive from EP. You don't need full-blown GR.
Inertial motion is not necessarily uniform, nor in a straight line. A satellite's motion is inertial, but not in a straight line (from the viewpoint of an observer outside the gravity well). An object falling toward the center of a planet has inertial, straight motion, but not uniform motion(ibid). Inertial motion is strictly empirical, and defined by the tendency of objects to stay in place until moved by an outside force. If you position and release a ball in an inertial environment, it will float right where you leave it. The earth's surface is not an inertial environment; the ball will drop to the ground. I agree that something like "uniform motion", as an ontological status, is not detectable. You don't need it to say an environemnt is inertial.
Did they suddenly "move" a distance of 2.225 light years to get closer, or did the space really just cut contract to half it's size (for them alone)?
I guess I never thought of SR from that point of view. I see what you are saying now. The answer is neither and both, to a degree.
It's another to say, now, that acceleration IS gravitation because gravitation "causes" time compression, and I want acceleration to do the same trick for me (which it doesn't).
It's not that one is the other, it's there is no empirical difference in the effects of one or the other, so when you switch coordinate systems you can substitute one for the other.
You still have not defined waht it means for an observer in an inertial environment to be really moving. As for whether Pat or Chris will be younger, the question comes back: younger from who's point of view? Pat sees Chris as younger, Chris sees Pat as younger, and you can find an inertial reference frame where they are the same age? In what way does it make sense to say one is younger without qualification?
If they are moving at equal rates of speed, relative to each other, then they are BOTH wrong (because neither is younger than the other).
How could they be moving at unequal speeds relative to each other?
The twins get reunited. Pat and Chris never get reunitied. If you change the scenario to reunite them, the answer of who will be younger after they are reunitied will be different depending on the reunificaiton conditions.
Seriously, I can appreciate you have a need ot have a clear, non-arbitrary answer on this. I don't think reality can accomodate you. Any clear answer will be arbitrary, any non-arbitrary answer will lack clarity.
I would change "2. (Ontological) Neither can be moving faster." to "2. (Ontological) Either can be moving faster."
You go on to repeat that type of assertion (changing "any" to "no"), and I would continue those general alternatives (we can say an effect is either, we can choose any point, etc.).
One Brow said: "Inertial motion is not necessarily uniform, nor in a straight line."
In SR it is.
One Brow said: "The twins get reunited. Pat and Chris never get reunitied."
Totally irrelevant.
One Brow said: "I would change "2. (Ontological) Neither can be moving faster." to "2. (Ontological) Either can be moving faster."
Merely a new reassertion of your wholly ontological philosophical premises. You haven't understood a word I said.
One Brow said: "Seriously, I can appreciate you have a need ot have a clear, non-arbitrary answer on this."
I have no "need" one way or the other. Einstein did (and you have adopted his emotional needs). He was desperate to resolve the twin paradox because he knew that, unless he did, his ontology would have to go out the window.
It doesn't matter what I need, the logic of SR itself dictates that a different ontological view than Einstien preferred be taken. Even if it didn't dictate that, the facts would, in which case the scientific parts (and not just the philosophical parts Einstien wants to impute to the theory) would be invalidated.
The absolute time dilation for objects moving at higher relative speeds destroys the symmetry required by the truly relative ontological which you just asserted.
I have said there is no paradox. I in no way claim that SR has been invalidated by the predictions it makes (and the experiments which confirm those predictions). It predicts asymmetrical time dilation effects. OK, no problem. The only problem is a philosophical one, not a scientific one. It is created by the attempt to concurrently assert (in Einstein's words) "the equality of coordinate systems as a matter of principle."
Sorry Al, that view is simply not consistent with the predictions of your own theory.
One Brow said: "I guess I never thought of SR from that point of view."
I have often thought about it from that point of view, which probably helps explain why we have such a difficult time understanding each other. I have been trying to get you to think about some of the implications of the theory which go beyond (or are simply totally independent of) the mathematical analysis.
One Brow said: "Which explanations do you see as making that mistake...SR does quite nicely."
SR does quite nicely in terms of denying that it can even attempt to "resolve the paradox," because it does not purport to address accelerated motion, that's all.
If you think the "paradox" is: "How can two twins not be the same age!?" then, yes, SR resolves it. But that AINT the paradox.
One Brow asked: "How could they be moving at unequal speeds relative to each other?"
This very question reveals the same erroneous presumptions that were involved when you seemed to conclude that if the two-way speed of light remained constant, that must prove it travelled at the same speed each way.
If two objects are moving apart at the total relative speed of .5c, then that will not change. But that certainly does NOT require that the contribution of each object to this total difference be equal. This is just an example of the fallacy of division (or the fallacy of composition, maybe, depending on how you look at it).
If inertial motion was required to be uniform and in a straight line in SR, you would not be able to add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin. In the ship twin's point of view, the planetary twin is in an inertial reference frame even while accelerating and changing direction.
The fact that Pat and Chris do not get reunitied is exactly why there is no individual answer to who is older. It's why that answer will change depending on how you any putative reunification.
What supposedly needs resolving to you? You are inferring desparation to what Einstein regarded as a settled, if perhaps counter-intuitive, scenario.
The absolute time dilation for objects ... destroys the symmetry required by the truly relative ontological
There is no absolute time dilation that can be detected until you previously specify a absolute time scale on an absolute reference frame. Until then, there are only relative time dilations compared to other reference frames. Since the selction of an absolute reference frame is arbitrary, it is nonsense to talk about *the* absolute time dilation, there are only various and sundry different time dilations for different reference frames.
However, I think I finally have teh answer you are looking for, perhaps. An inertial reference frame always sees any other reference frame as moving faster than it does. So, if we take on the additional ontological baggage that times moves at the same rate locally in all inertial reference frames, we can answer Pat/Chris as: they are always the same age, regardless of any speed differences. To the extent there can be an answer, it would be that.
Any theory that gives you answer A in one coordinate system, and answer B in another coordinate system where (after any appropriate change of units) A < B is useless. You have railed about how time was not supposed to be affecting clocks, but it is a philosophical problem to say how we measure spacetime doesn't change the distance between two points? Seriously, think about that, carefully.
I appreciate your efforts to bring in some new ways to thyink about relativity. However, they have been rather ham-fisted in their application and interpretation, and that interferes with the presentation. For example, once I understood what you meant about the implications of length contraction due to speed, I thought that was a nifty way to describe the different path taken by the ship in the geometrical interpretation of GR, or the different perception of spce under SR.
But that AINT the paradox.
Is there a paradox? Wikipedia describes it as being that an absolute difference in time experienced comes from relative velocity differences. That's not really a paradox either, though. We both agree the relative differences are real. The only reason I can see that you might be thinking of it as a real paradox is the whole change-of-coordinate-systems-uses-EP thing. That seems to be your focus. I don't see that as a paradox either though. In fact, I only see a paradox in the same way that Banach-Tarski is a paradox, in that it does against the usual predicitons of our experiences.
... you seemed to conclude that if the two-way speed of light remained constant, that must prove it travelled at the same speed each way.
Actually, I believe I gave that as a decent reason to asuume it, absent 1) evidence to the contrary, and 2) any resonable mechanism for speeding light up in one direction, and slowing light down by a different amounts when traveling in the opposite direction, so that the overall average is always c.
does NOT require that the contribution of each object to this total difference be equal.
Actually, it does not require that there is any such thing as "the contribution of each object" at all, unless you arbitrarily select from one inertial reference frame out of many.
One Brow said: "If inertial motion was required to be uniform and in a straight line in SR, you would not be able to add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin."
Exactly.
One Brow said: "The fact that Pat and Chris do not get reunitied is exactly why there is no individual answer to who is older. It's why that answer will change depending on how you any putative reunification."
Eric, you simply continue to display your mistaken equation of ontology to epistemology. Why you should be saying is:
"The fact that Pat and Chris do not get reunitied is exactly why "we cannot give an" [NOT "there is no"] individual answer to who is older.
One Brow said: "There is no absolute time dilation that can be detected until you previously specify a absolute time scale on an absolute reference frame."
As I said before: "In this sense, "absolute motion" is not determined by comparing one thing to empty space, and that is NOT the sense in which "absolute" is being used. It is used by comparing one thing to another with respect to which one thing is absolutely ("really") going at a higher rate of relative speed to another that is absolutely goint at a lower rate of speed than the other. Call it absolute relative motion, if you want. Whatever you call it, the theory predicts it the same way."
Don't get confused by the word "absolute." Call it "absolute relative motion," if it makes you feel better. I call it "real" (i.e., non-illusory) motion. Whatever you call it, we are NOT even talking about "absolute time scale on an absolute reference frame."
One Brow said: "What supposedly needs resolving to you? You are inferring desparation to what Einstein regarded as a settled, if perhaps counter-intuitive, scenario."
Einstien's "desperation" might not be so blatantly apparent if he merely posited the supposed "equivalence" of gravity and acceleration in his "resolution." But that's not the end of it. He ALSO posited (out of necessity, for his purposes) the simultaneous appearance of a mysterious, unspecified, SECOND "force" (which I have called the "hand of God") in order to selectively apply this "gravitation." Without that SECOND force, his (non) resolution wouldn't even the give appearance of creating two "identical" situations.
Whatever Einstein regarded as "settled" in a philosophical area is not the real issue here as far as the scientific theory of relativity goes, anyway. Modern experiments have seemingly PROVED that, as far as time contraction is concerned, acceleration is NOT equivalent to gravity anyway. Einstein didn't know that at the time, fair enough. But it is senseless to appeal, retroactively, to his ignorance as the basis for a "settlement" of the issue.
One Brow said: "Seriously, think about that, carefully."
Not sure exactly what it is you want me to think about. I have specified all along that the issue here is a philosophical one, and have specifically quoted sources which realize and acknowledge that the difference between SR and LR is strictly philosophical, with no known empirical distinguishing factors.
One Brow said: "So, if we take on the additional ontological baggage that times moves at the same rate locally in all inertial reference frames, we can answer Pat/Chris as: they are always the same age, regardless of any speed differences. To the extent there can be an answer, it would be that."
Not sure I completely understand what you are getting at here, but it would be contrary to both facts and theory to say, within a SR context, that "they are always the same age, regardless of any speed differences." That is the answer that Einstein WANTED to present, but his own theory wouldn't allow it.
If you are saying that there would be no age difference in LR, that's correct (at least as I understand LR), but only in one sense. The "time elapsed" for both of the twins would be the same, I think, but they would not have aged (physically) the same. The physical aging process would still have slowed down for the one moving faster.
One Brow said: Is there a paradox? Wikipedia describes it as being that an absolute difference in time experienced comes from relative velocity differences. That's not really a paradox either, though...The only reason I can see that you might be thinking of it as a real paradox..."
Heh, Eric, it's not just *me* who "thinks" its a real paradox. Scientists and philosophers have taken it to be a "real paradox" since 1905. Those who don't see the problem, simply don't understand the implications. If you are absolutely incapable of seeing things from any standpoint other than one which you deem to be consistent with your prior assumptions, then you can NEVER see any "real" conflict between what you already "know" and any conceivable set of so-called "facts," or "inconsistencies."
If the facts don't agree with your pre-conceptions, well, then, so much the worse for the so-called "facts" (they CAN'T really be facts, just some sort of misinterpretation of "reality" as you see it).
Same with inconsistencies. There simply cannot be any inconsistencies, even if there appear to be some. That is known from jump street. No need to even consider the possibility of inconsistencies, they cannot "really" exist.
One Brow said: "Actually, it does not require that there is any such thing as "the contribution of each object" at all, unless you arbitrarily select from one inertial reference frame out of many."
It is precisely these kinds of statements, which you make repeatedly, that render everything you say entirely comprehensible. It's like saying you can have a "sum" of two numbers, without ever having two numbers, or any at all.
It seems that you often to try to deduce some statement, which strikes you as somehow meaningful, from the conclusions you have already reached. Since you know your conclusion is right, you can infer the (or at least some) premises which you seemingly justify your conclusion. If they don't make sense to anyone, that's because only you understand them. Other people are just slow, that's all.
One Brow said: "The only reason I can see that you might be thinking of it as a real paradox is the whole change-of-coordinate-systems-uses-EP thing."
No, that may be one reason that I don't believe that explains the paradox, but that's not the reason there *is* a paradox.
I can try stating this in a variety of alternate ways, I guess, but I'm not sure if you'll understand any of them. Read what wiki says the paradox is. Then consider this:
IF all motion is truly relative, and if, indeed, there is no reason to prefer one frame of reference over another,
THEN any theory which was consistent with that thesis would predict that both twins would be the same age, regardless of purely "relative" motion.
I said: "He ALSO posited (out of necessity, for his purposes) the simultaneous appearance of a mysterious, unspecified, SECOND "force" (which I have called the "hand of God") in order to selectively apply this "gravitation." Without that SECOND force, his (non) resolution wouldn't even the give appearance of creating two "identical" situations."
Just in case you doubt this, I am now quoting from his "resolution," frame K', event 1:
"A gravitational field appears, that is directed towards the negative x-axis. Clock U1 is accelerated in free fall, until it has reached velocity v. An EXTERNAL FORCE acts upon clock U2, preventing it from being set in motion by the gravitational field."
CAPS mine. External force = ad hoc deux ex machina aka "Hand of GOD." Really, who would ever take this "explanation" seriously? Like I said, I am embarrassed for him.
The gravitational field just magically "appears," on a strictly temporary, come and go basis, at the very instant when acceleration is needed; then it disappears, only to magically appear and reappear later. Like I said, suspect enough in its own right. But even that does no good without the further intervention of the HAND OF GOD (which Einstien doesn't even bother to later remove when the "gravitational" field disappears, so as to not call any additional attention to it).
If that's not a sign of desperation, what is, I ax ya?
I am moving this to the top, because it demonstrates much of what I will say later about how little you understand this topic.
IF all motion is truly relative, and if, indeed, there is no reason to prefer one frame of reference over another,
THEN any theory which was consistent with that thesis would predict that both twins would be the same age, regardless of purely "relative" motion.
I said: "He ALSO posited (out of necessity, for his purposes) the simultaneous appearance of a mysterious, unspecified, SECOND "force" (which I have called the "hand of God") in order to selectively apply this "gravitation." Without that SECOND force, his (non) resolution wouldn't even the give appearance of creating two "identical" situations."
Just in case you doubt this, I am now quoting from his "resolution," frame K', event 1:
"A gravitational field appears, that is directed towards the negative x-axis. Clock U1 is accelerated in free fall, until it has reached velocity v. An EXTERNAL FORCE acts upon clock U2, preventing it from being set in motion by the gravitational field."
CAPS mine. External force = ad hoc deux ex machina aka "Hand of GOD." Really, who would ever take this "explanation" seriously? Like I said, I am embarrassed for him.
The gravitational field just magically "appears," on a strictly temporary, come and go basis, at the very instant when acceleration is needed; then it disappears, only to magically appear and reappear later. Like I said, suspect enough in its own right. But even that does no good without the further intervention of the HAND OF GOD (which Einstien doesn't even bother to later remove when the "gravitational" field disappears, so as to not call any additional attention to it).
If that's not a sign of desperation, what is, I ax ya?
The "HAND OF GOD" you are referring to is more commonly called "rocket propulsion", or at least the same method of propulsion used in the ship in coordinate frame K. You have been so busy trying to drill holes that you seem to have missed the obvious, plainer than the nose on your face. The events of coordinate frame K are the exact same events as those of coordinate frame K', except they are being described from a different point of view. Pointing out that the rocket will fire (or whatever propulsion system will act the same in K and K') the same way in both is pointing out that there are two different descriptions of the same event being presented. I don't find it particularly desparate to say that if the a ball is a home run when you measure it's distance in yards, then it's a home run when you measure it in meters. In fact, I would find any claim that meauring the length in yards makes it a home run, while measuring it in meters makes it a double, to be so divorced from realityh that it would betray either a lack of sanity or a very fundamental misunderstanding of what measurements are. For the moment, I am operating under the assumpton you are sane. Therefore, I can only assume that you fundamentally misunderstand what you are talking about. The notion that different reference frames (a reference frame is nothing more than a chosen coordinate system) would give different answers (after correcting for the units involved) is ludicrous.
One Brow said: "If inertial motion was required to be uniform and in a straight line in SR, you would not be able to add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin."
Exactly.
Since Einstein, and many others, did indeed add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin, Obviously SR does not require uniform motion nor straight lines. Nice of you to admit your error.
"The fact that Pat and Chris do not get reunitied is exactly why "we cannot give an" [NOT "there is no"] individual answer to who is older.
Many different answers will have equal ontological status prior to a reunification scenario. Any of those answers can be right depending on our future actions. Unless you intend to have future events affect the present, there can't be a correct answer in the present.
Don't get confused by the word "absolute." Call it "absolute relative motion," if it makes you feel better. I call it "real" (i.e., non-illusory) motion. Whatever you call it, we are NOT even talking about "absolute time scale on an absolute reference frame."
How is "absolute relative motion" different from other types of relative motion, and what would you call them?
Whatever Einstein regarded as "settled" in a philosophical area is not the real issue here as far as the scientific theory of relativity goes, anyway. Modern experiments have seemingly PROVED that, as far as time contraction is concerned, acceleration is NOT equivalent to gravity anyway.
Not in an ontological fashion, of course. Are you claiming there has been a difference proven within relativity theory?
One Brow said: "Seriously, think about that, carefully."
Not sure exactly what it is you want me to think about.
You made a claim that it was improper to say you should always get the same answer in different coordinate systems. You really think that doesn't bear closer examination?
I have specified all along that the issue here is a philosophical one, and have specifically quoted sources which realize and acknowledge that the difference between SR and LR is strictly philosophical, with no known empirical distinguishing factors.
What sort of philosophical differences justify getting a different answer simply by changing yor coordinate system?
One Brow said: "So, if we take on the additional ontological baggage that times moves at the same rate locally in all inertial reference frames, we can answer Pat/Chris as: they are always the same age, regardless of any speed differences. To the extent there can be an answer, it would be that."
Not sure I completely understand what you are getting at here, but it would be contrary to both facts and theory to say, within a SR context, that "they are always the same age, regardless of any speed differences."
Once we have added the presumption that time passes at the same local rate in all inertial reference frames, allowing us to discuss simultaneity of far-distanct events, we are no longer using relativity.
That is the answer that Einstein WANTED to present, but his own theory wouldn't allow it.
*chortle*. I don't think it ever bothered Einstein in the slighest for the answer to be indeterminate.
The physical aging process would still have slowed down for the one moving faster.
Moving faster with respect to what?
Heh, Eric, it's not just *me* who "thinks" its a real paradox. Scientists and philosophers have taken it to be a "real paradox" since 1905.
To be a paradox requires that there be a seeming contradiction at some point, or to be contrary to ordinary wisdom. There is certainly a twin paradox in the latter sense.
There is no contradiciton.
Those who don't see the problem, simply don't understand the implications.
The arrogance of the Google-educated.
Mathematicians (at least, those who study logic and foundational mathematics) eat paradox for breakfast. It is unavoidable.
If you are absolutely incapable of seeing things from any standpoint other than one which you deem to be consistent with your prior assumptions, then you can NEVER see any "real" conflict between what you already "know" and any conceivable set of so-called "facts," or "inconsistencies."
I am capable of seeing things in other ways, I'm just not fooled by them.
If the facts don't agree with your pre-conceptions, well, then, so much the worse for the so-called "facts" (they CAN'T really be facts, just some sort of misinterpretation of "reality" as you see it).
If you had any facts that indicated my opinions were incorrect, I would change my opinions. I have done this in the past in our conversations. Here, you are simply incorrect.
Same with inconsistencies. There simply cannot be any inconsistencies, even if there appear to be some. That is known from jump street. No need to even consider the possibility of inconsistencies, they cannot "really" exist.
Inconsistencies can't just be claimed, they have to be demonstrated. I would probably need two or three months of refreshment on manifolds, tensor calculus, etc. to engage in any decent attempt to refute the understanding of the twin paradox.
One Brow said: "Actually, it does not require that there is any such thing as "the contribution of each object" at all, unless you arbitrarily select from one inertial reference frame out of many."
It is precisely these kinds of statements, which you make repeatedly, that render everything you say entirely comprehensible. It's like saying you can have a "sum" of two numbers, without ever having two numbers, or any at all.
I am saying you can't have a sum because there are not two numbers to add, at least not two numbers that have some ontological priorityh over any other pair of non-negative numbers that give you the same sum.
It seems that you often to try to deduce some statement, which strikes you as somehow meaningful, from the conclusions you have already reached. Since you know your conclusion is right, you can infer the (or at least some) premises which you seemingly justify your conclusion. If they don't make sense to anyone, that's because only you understand them. Other people are just slow, that's all.
Or, maybe you are just so anxious to teach me something you don't realize what it is you don't understand.
I can try stating this in a variety of alternate ways, I guess, but I'm not sure if you'll understand any of them. Read what wiki says the paradox is.
The wiki page says the paradox is an absolute effect comeing from relative motion. I have already acknowledged this is a paradox in the sense of not following common experience. There is no contradiction.
One Brow said: "The "HAND OF GOD" you are referring to is more commonly called "rocket propulsion", or at least the same method of propulsion used in the ship in coordinate frame K."
You can't be serious, Eric. OF COURSE Al is trying, DESPERATELY in his "alternate scenario, to SOMEHOW create a mirror image of K. That goes without saying. It's just ridiculous that anyone would take it literally or seriously. So you mean, Al is saying: "Let's ALSO assume that at the same time this gravitational force magically arises, a rocket ship appears, from out of nowhere, and hits Twin B in the stomach and pins him to his spot, as it keeps it's accelerating engines on, and then it too disappears, later." Well, depending on your religious convictions, I spoze, that might seem more plausible than the hand of God....
Heh.
One Brow said: "Since Einstein, and many others, did indeed add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin, Obviously SR does not require uniform motion nor straight lines. Nice of you to admit your error."
Nice of you to provide a perfect illustration of what I just said a few posts back. You DEDUCE your conclusions from "known" premises, without a second thought about informing yourself.
Known premise #1: Einstein is an infallible genius who would never contradict himself
Known premise #2: If he said X, that would be inconsistent
Irrefutable conclusion: Therefore he could not POSSIBLY have said X.
"Albert Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, as proposed in his 1905 paper, "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies," was built on the understanding of inertia and inertial reference frames developed by Galileo and Newton....Einstein's concept of inertia remained unchanged from Newton's original meaning (in fact the entire theory was based on Newton's definition of inertia)."
http://www.answers.com/topic/inertia
Read about it here, too, or any other place you care to look if you're interested in research, rather than deduction:
"Sir Isaac Newton defined inertia in Definition 3 of his Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, which states:[1]
The vis insita, or innate force of matter is a power of resisting, by which every body, as much as in it lies, endeavors to preserve in its present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forward in a straight line."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia#Relativity
And, of course, anyone who doesn't share your (usually undisclosed) premises (however unsound), and reasoning therefrom (however fallacious) is simply "admitting to error," eh?
One Brow said: "You made a claim that it was improper to say you should always get the same answer in different coordinate systems. You really think that doesn't bear closer examination?"
You have misintrepreted my response to something you said, apparently.
One Brow asked: How is "absolute relative motion" different from other types of relative motion, and what would you call them?
I answered the second part in the very statement you addressed your question to. I call it "real" (non-illusory) motion. Einstein, at one point at least, considered acceleration to be "absolute," and hence a form of "absolute motion."
In the broadest sense "relative" only has meaning with respect to a contrast with something else, and there is no "correct" answer. A human is "tall" compared to an ant, but "short" compared to a skyscraper. There is no absolute meaning to such relative words as "tall." Nonetheless, the statement that that a skyscraper is "taller than a human" is a claim about a "true" state of affairs, i.e., an absolute, not a merely relative, claim.
To say that A is going faster than B is to make an absolute claim about the speed difference between A and B. That A and B may themselves be only "relatively" moving in some other sense does not change that. They are both, for example, moving "relative to" the sun, and, furthermore, A is absolutely moving faster than B. Call it "absolute relative motion," if you want.
From another perspective involving language (since that's what you're asking about), take this state of affairs:
1. "Bill and Joe are getting farther apart all the time" is merely a statement about relative motion, without specifying who is moving.
2. Bill is staying in California while Joe is driving to New York implies a claim about which, between the two, is "at rest" and who is "really moving." It is not a purely relative claim, as 1 is.
One Brow said: "Many different answers will have equal ontological status prior to a reunification scenario."
You merely once again reassert your identification of epistemology with ontology. Until you open your eyes, the heads-up coin on your table could "equally be" heads or tails, as far as you currently know eh? Surprise, surprise.
Do you think this is really saying something significant? It sounds like something a medieval mystic/metaphysician might say, ya know?:
One Brow said: "Many different answers will have equal ontological status prior to a reunification scenario. Any of those answers can be right depending on our future actions. Unless you intend to have future events affect the present, there can't be a correct answer in the present."
The multiple assertions of your infallible omniscience are all quite reassuring, Eric, but I'm still wondering if you even know what the twin paradox is. True, or false?:
"IF all motion is truly relative, and if, indeed, there is no reason to prefer one frame of reference over another,
THEN any theory which was consistent with that thesis would predict that both twins would be the same age, regardless of purely "relative" motion."
I said: "Read about it here, too, or any other place you care to look if you're interested in research, rather than deduction:"
"Einstein’s general theory modifies the distinction between nominally "inertial" and "noninertial" effects by replacing special relativity's "flat" Euclidean geometry with a curved non-Euclidean metric. In general relativity, the principle of inertia is replaced with the principle of geodesic motion, whereby objects move in a way dictated by the curvature of spacetime."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frame_of_reference#Special_relativity
"In general relativity, a geodesic generalizes the notion of a "straight line" to curved spacetime."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_(general_relativity)
Eric, during the course of this thread, I think you have often simply conflated special and general relativity into one theory of "relativity." In fact, as I recall, you have insisted upon doing so, claiming that they were in no way different in their premises and conclusions. This does not help in the clarity department, but you seem to like it that way, ya know?
I said: "Selig elaborated on Einstien's scientific conclusions as follows" "For all we know at the very instant the bat appeared to hit the ball, what in fact happened was that God intervened to deceive all observers. HE put out his invisible hand and stopped the ball in it's tracks."
Email poured into league offices, questioning the commissioner's decision. One such inquiry complained that: "The "HAND OF GOD" you are referring to is more commonly called "baseball bat," or at least the same method of propulsion used in the actual game."
Selig: My mistake, One Brow. Let's just say the ball was stopped in it's tracks by a gravity-resistant invisible baseball bat held by the Hand of God. How's that?
The physical aging process would still have slowed down for the one moving faster.
One Brow asked: "Moving faster with respect to what?"
Is it that you don't read well, or do you just think this particular question, which you've probably asked at least 50 times now, is so profound that it must be asked repeatedly?
Faster than the other. Comprehendre?
You can't be serious, Eric. OF COURSE Al is trying, DESPERATELY in his "alternate scenario, to SOMEHOW create a mirror image of K.
K' is not an alternate scenario to K. K' and K are *the same scenario*. Not as in two identical events, it's two different ways of describing the same single event. There is only one scenario, described in both K and K'. First Einstein descibes a scenario using the frame of reference K, then he describes the exact same events using K'. If teh participants in K are named Stella and Terence, then the participnats in K" must be named Stella and Terence, because they are the same people going through the same event.
Clearer now?
One Brow said: "Since Einstein, and many others, did indeed add in EP to show the twin paradox from the point of view of the ship twin, Obviously SR does not require uniform motion nor straight lines. Nice of you to admit your error."
Nice of you to provide a perfect illustration of what I just said a few posts back. You DEDUCE your conclusions from "known" premises, without a second thought about informing yourself.
Actually, much as you said "Exactly" when you meant the opposite of what I was saying, I thanked you for admitting your error when you were doing no such thing.
Read about it here, too, or any other place you care to look if you're interested in research, rather than deduction:
Well, now that we have seen the University of Google version, what more explanation could there possibly be?
By the way, did you ever wonder where the terms Special Relativity and General Relativity, and in particular the first words of those terms, came from? Not that it will prove anything, but hopefully it will cause you to re-think this a bit.
One Brow said: "You made a claim that it was improper to say you should always get the same answer in different coordinate systems. You really think that doesn't bear closer examination?"
You have misintrepreted my response to something you said, apparently.
The only difference between K and K' is the use of a different coordinate system. Yet, you find it ridiculous that they should have the same answer, requring some hand of god intervention. Did I misinterpet that?
To say that A is going faster than B is to make an absolute claim about the speed difference between A and B. That A and B may themselves be only "relatively" moving in some other sense does not change that. They are both, for example, moving "relative to" the sun, and, furthermore, A is absolutely moving faster than B. Call it "absolute relative motion," if you want.
Let's say we have some other star Q moving at .001c away from the sun, while A is moving away from the sun toward Q as .0006c and B is moving in the same sirection at .0004c. Q will see A approching it as approximately .0004c and B at approximately .0006c. Either way, both see the difference between them as being about .0002c.
Is the difference A moving absolutely faster than B and B moving absolutely faster than A just the difference between choosing the sun or choosing Q? That would make "absolute relative motion" the same thing as relative motion. If not, how do you divvy up absolute relative motion among A and B in this scenario?
From another perspective involving language (since that's what you're asking about), take this state of affairs:
1. "Bill and Joe are getting farther apart all the time" is merely a statement about relative motion, without specifying who is moving.
2. Bill is staying in California while Joe is driving to New York implies a claim about which, between the two, is "at rest" and who is "really moving." It is not a purely relative claim, as 1 is.
I agree, because in 2 you have selected a rest frame to base absolute motion upon ("staying in California"). I have said for a few posts now that you can arbitrarily choose a rest frame to be absolute, and then all motion becomes absolute motion in that rest frame.
Do you think this is really saying something significant? It sounds like something a medieval mystic/metaphysician might say, ya know?:
One Brow said: "Many different answers will have equal ontological status prior to a reunification scenario. Any of those answers can be right depending on our future actions. Unless you intend to have future events affect the present, there can't be a correct answer in the present."
Current scenario: Pat and Chris are moving away at relative speed v. They were born into at this condition.
Future event one: Pat undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Pat's speed so that Pat is now appraoching Chris at speed v. Christ undergoes no acceleration. When Pat cacthes Chris, Pat will be younger than Chris by amount y. y will be larger than the amount that can be attributed to the second leg of Pat's journey.
Future event two: Chris undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Chris' speed so that Chris is now appraoching Pat at speed v. Pat undergoes no acceleration. When Chris cacthes Pat, Chris will be younger than Pat by amount y. y will be larger than the amount that can be attributed to the second leg of Chris' journey. Yes, this y will always be the exact same amount.
Future event three: Pat and Chris undergo identical acceleration, so they are now approaching each other at relative speed v. They will be the same age when they meet.
Whether or not it sounds like something a medieval metaphysician might say, this is what happens.
The multiple assertions of your infallible omniscience
Cute.
True, or false?:
"IF all motion is truly relative, and if, indeed, there is no reason to prefer one frame of reference over another,
THEN any theory which was consistent with that thesis would predict that both twins would be the same age, regardless of purely "relative" motion."
False. The twins have empirically different experiences, and this will be true in any reference frame. This is why the paradox is not an apparent contradiction, but merely counter-intuitive.
Eric, during the course of this thread, I think you have often simply conflated special and general relativity into one theory of "relativity." In fact, as I recall, you have insisted upon doing so, claiming that they were in no way different in their premises and conclusions. This does not help in the clarity department, but you seem to like it that way, ya know?
Well, straight lines and uniform motion are pretty special, so much so that they can even reduce complicated tensor equations to simple algebraic equations.
Selig: My mistake, One Brow. Let's just say the ball was stopped in it's tracks by a gravity-resistant invisible baseball bat held by the Hand of God. How's that?
As opposed to the baseball bat that was in the player's hand?
Faster than the other. Comprehendre?
Faster than the other compared to what?
One Brow said: "The "HAND OF GOD" you are referring to is more commonly called "rocket propulsion", or at least the same method of propulsion used in the ship in coordinate frame K."
OK, I took another look at the example of Al's and I see your point here. I have to retract my interpretation that TWO novel forces had been introduced, if I am reading this the way he apparently intended.
None of the examples (wiki, the "Stella" example, or even Al himself) make it clear when and where SR is being mismatched with GR so it's difficult to tell what they are even claiming is being compared to what. Wiki, says, for example: "Although this is called a "general relativity" solution, in fact it is done using findings related to special relativity for accelerated observers that Einstein described as early as 1907 (namely the equivalence principle and gravitational time dilation). So it could be called the "accelerated observer viewpoint" instead."
Either way, this whole brand of "explanation" is full of equivocation and "the same" events are not being compared to "the same" events. Reference frames are clearly being shifted by Al when "interpreting" different sides of this "equation."
The fact that death can result from multiple causes does not mean that the result (death) will appear to be the result of the same events, whatever happened. The same twin (clock) is accelerated in one interpretation and not in the other, but the different sets of circumstances are supposedly, indistinguishable. The other twin is accelerated in both examples, and again, supposedly these circumstances cannot be distinguished by the twin in question. If an acceleration by gravity cannot be distinguished from a situation where there is no acceleration at all, then where does that leave you? It appears to leave you in a situation where you are declaring that NO motion, uniform or accelerated, can ever be detected.
The whole "demonstration" is bogus, although admittedly not as blatantly bogus as I first took it to be. Given your claims and the ambiguous descriptions given by the other authors in question, the claim seemed to be that SR was being compared to GR, which it aint (by Al) I guess. To say that a GR solution agrees with a GR solution says nothing about SR. Al's example certainly does absolutely NOTHING to dispel the fact that the kinematic time dilation is asymmetical and attributed SOLELY to the object deemed to be "really" moving. It fact, it merely re-asserts that aspect of SR. The one moving faster is "younger" due to the kinematic aspects of all examples used.
Why haven't you complained about Al imputing the "real motion" to a particular object on each side of this comparison, I wonder?
As I said before, claiming that GR agrees with itself is not to say one GR solution agrees with "the same" solution of the same problem in SR, as all these authors try to suggest, at least indirectly. It seems the language was carefully chosen for the purpose of giving a conclusion while only offering very non-specific and ambiguous explanations of the supposed rationale therefor.
One Brow said: "False. The twins have empirically different experiences, and this will be true in any reference frame. This is why the paradox is not an apparent contradiction, but merely counter-intuitive."
Heh, we've spent god only knows discussing a paradox which you don't even understand.
One Brow said: The twins have empirically different experiences...
Different compared to what?
One Brow said: The twins have empirically different experiences
Empirical compared to what?
Well, Eric, thanks to your extensive input, I have learned quite a few things I didn't know about special and general relativity. For example:
1. If SR gives you an answer, don't trust it. If, for example, it tells you that one twin will age more, that answer is worthless, because you can never know if any twin is moving to begin with. Any "solution" which acts like you can doesn't even understand the theory.
2. Even if you could (you can't) take a particular solution as correct, it wouldn't help you in the least with another problem with another twin because, well, because you can't ever know if any twin ever really moves, but also because....
3. Bring in GR and any answer you get will be even more worthless, because every answer is right from some equally valid co-ordinate system. Put another way, there is NEVER any right answer. So no need tryin to puts clocks on planes, accelerate particles to see if acceleration is the equivalent of gravity, or nuthin, like that.
4. Even if you could get a right answer, and even if it was based carefy on empirical observation, it couldn't be trusted. Observation can only take account of what is observed, ya know? No matter how carefully you observe and record, you can't see the possibly hundreds of thousands of pseudo-graviational fields that come and go throughout your experiment. You may "think" you saw what happened, but that is impossible to know, in principle.
You can't ever know the true speed of light, even in theory, because the theory itself tells ya that ya can't never know nuthin. Don't waste your time.
So, kinda like the ole Greek sophist, Gorgias, done said, I spect:
"Nothing exists;
Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and
Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others."
I guess mebbe modern physics aint so modern after all, eh?
Reference frames are clearly being shifted by Al when "interpreting" different sides of this "equation."
A shift in reference frames is just a shift in coordinates. If you are behand third base and see a home run hit, does it change to a foul ball for a person sitting behind first? For a guy watching from a passing train? Shifting reference frames does not change the events being described, it just changes how we describe them.
The same twin (clock) is accelerated in one interpretation and not in the other, but the different sets of circumstances are supposedly, indistinguishable.
In both K and K', it is the ship clock that is accelerated, and the planetary clock that is in teh inchanging inertial frame. By the EP, free-fall is inertial, and resisting gravity is acceleration. This also matches what we can detect empirically. Any truly inertial environment is like free-fall.
Why haven't you complained about Al imputing the "real motion" to a particular object on each side of this comparison, I wonder?
Because he is discussing real motion after establishing a coordinate system first. As I have said, after you choose your coordinate system, you can say there is absolute motion within that system.
As I said before, claiming that GR agrees with itself is not to say one GR solution agrees with "the same" solution of the same problem in SR, as all these authors try to suggest, at least indirectly.
The GR solution (or whatever you wish to call it) must agree with the SR solution for two reasons.
1) They are describing the same events. If give definite answers and they don't agree, one must be wrong.
2) SR is a simplified version of GR.
Heh, we've spent god only knows discussing a paradox which you don't even understand.
The shipboard twin's empirical experiences are identical in K and K' (as it is the same event), and so are the planetbound twin's. The reason the shipboard twin ages less is based on teh difference between his empirical experences and those of the planet-bound counter part, regardless of teh coordinate system you express this in.
One Brow said: The twins have empirically different experiences...
Different compared to what?
Empirical compared to what?
Different compared to each other. Empirical based on the observed results of experiments that could be run.
I'm ignoring the last rant, it doesn't seem to be designed to communicate. I hope you are not really giving up. You just took a small leap in understanding this, but there is more you can get even from an amatuer like me.
One Brow said: "Because he is discussing real motion after establishing a coordinate system first. As I have said, after you choose your coordinate system, you can say there is absolute motion within that system."
And yet you spent god only knows how many posts telling me that there was no way to say that, in the wiki example, the ship twin was "really" or "absolutely" moving. Such a notion was completely incomprehensible, and all. Go figure, eh?
One Brow said: " By the EP, free-fall is inertial, and resisting gravity is acceleration."
You miss the point. You can't say you are in "free-fall" until you reach a uniform state of motion. We can put a rocket in free-fall (orbit) but ONLY IF we first accelerate it. It doesn't go directly from it's "motionless" state on the launching pad into full blown "free fall." That only comes later AFTER extreme (and extremely noticable) acceleration. How can this guy (clock) in Al's example go from a state of "rest" to, say .99c INSTANTLY, without accelerating first?
Acceleration, whether caused by gravitation or observable physical forces, is still acceleration.
"In both K and K', it is the ship clock that is accelerated, and the planetary clock that is in teh inchanging inertial frame."
Are you seriously trying to say that the "planetary" clock (clock U2)is in an inertial (unaccelerated) state in both frames?
One Brow said: "I'm ignoring the last rant, it doesn't seem to be designed to communicate."
Don't. Ignore everything else I've said in this thread, but don't ignore that. It is not a "rant;" it reflects my sincere appraisal of this whole discussion.
One simply can't have a meaningful philosophical discussion (or any other kind, for that matter) with a person whose only agenda is to repeatedly re-assert his ontology with the sole goal of indoctrination. Your response to virtual every question is simply to assert your ontology which (as is typical of every dogmatic pedant) you equate 100% with empircal fact. You won't even concede the most basic predition of SR. Instead you merely insist that all such questions are unknowable, and solemnly pronounce that all answers are equally correct and equally incorrect.
If you think I have no idea of the relativity of perception and/or that I have no clue about what relativity theory posits concerning "frames of reference", think again. I am simply trying to discuss those basic premises. I am NOT, as you are, dedicated to presupposing their ABSOLUTE UNQUESTIONABLE objective truth with every statement I make in this thread, as you appear bound and determined to do.
And yet you spent god only knows how many posts telling me that there was no way to say that, in the wiki example, the ship twin was "really" or "absolutely" moving. Such a notion was completely incomprehensible, and all. Go figure, eh?
My understanding was that you wanted answer that would be correct in all reference frames. My apologies if I misunderstood.
Are you seriously trying to say that the "planetary" clock (clock U2)is in an inertial (unaccelerated) state in both frames?
Yes. So is Einstein, the wiki page, the guy who wrote up Stella/Terence. They are not saying it that directly, probably because they are not answering your questions. HOwever, it is why you get the same answers in K and K'.
You won't even concede the most basic predition of SR.
SR does not say there is no answer to who is yonger in the twin paradox. SR does not say the eathbound twin comes up younger in K' because you can't use K' in pure SR, you need a couple of add-ons. Trying to use pure SR to discuss K' is like taking an unloaded gun to skeet shoot: you're going to miss the target a lot.
Now, if you are talking about notion like 'who is really moving', these notions are truly absent from relativity. You can use other principles of physics to discuss, but they will not change the answers you get from relativity.
If you are referring to the Pat/Chris question, I gave what I thought was the best ontological answer for that, based on what could happen with various changes to the scenario. You didn't dispute my analysis. Do you think it was wrong?
If those paragraphs really seem like I'm just pushing an ontology, I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise. Every once in while I do turn out to be correct, you know, and I am very sure this is one of those times. However, I don't expect you to take my word for it.
As a science, relativity theory is by its very nature open to question and rebuttal. However, it has also been tested in a variety of ways, and also produced some other interesting ideas that were tested and verified. Until it is overturned, I have no compunction as treating it as so certain that it is perverse to withhold consent. I understand you will always be more skeptical.
I asked: Are you seriously trying to say that the "planetary" clock (clock U2)is in an inertial (unaccelerated) state in both frames?"
Your reply: Yes. So is Einstein, the wiki page, the guy who wrote up Stella/Terence.
Does the contrast between accelerated vs inertial states simply boil down to one, and only one question, then?: Whether or not a object is "moving?"
I asked: "Are you seriously trying to say that the "planetary" clock (clock U2)is in an inertial (unaccelerated) state in both frames?"
Your reply: "Yes. So is Einstein, the wiki page, the guy who wrote up Stella/Terence."
You say this immediately after saying this: "resisting gravity is acceleration."
This is the problem, Eric. I can't find a single line of consistency in your various statements, assumptions, and claims throughout this thread. I suspect you don't even think twice about whether some reponse you are giving now is the least bit consistent with the one you gave a while back, because that is irrelevant. The only issue in front of you is to give an answer that would appear to support the conclusion you have already reached, and want to "ram home."
One Brow said: "SR does not say there is no answer to who is yonger in the twin paradox. SR does not say the eathbound twin comes up younger in K' because you can't use K' in pure SR, you need a couple of add-ons. Trying to use pure SR to discuss K' is like taking an unloaded gun to skeet shoot: you're going to miss the target a lot."
Thanks for finally "telling" me what I have been trying to tell you (as you consistently denied it) for about 400 posts.
One Brow said: "If you are referring to the Pat/Chris question, I gave what I thought was the best ontological answer for that, based on what could happen with various changes to the scenario. You didn't dispute my analysis. Do you think it was wrong?"
I simply disputed your confusion of ontolgoy with epistemology and the type of confused statements it led you to make. I make long, detailed posts explaining my position. There is little indication that you ever even read, let alone considered such posts. Your basic "response" was to single out one or two comments to start a semantical quibble over while completely ignoring the substance.
I will repeat one part of such a post in my next post. Respond to the substance of it, if you care to.
I said: "You absolutely rejected my conditional (ontological) claims. You were therefore taking an opposing ontological view, not an "empirical" one.
Here's my claim:
1. Unless motion is merely illusory, then either P or C is really moving, if not both. Relative to Chris, Pat may be going 0, while Chris is going .5c, Pat may be going .1c, while Chris is going .4c, etc. We don't know which one is going faster, relative to the other, but we know one is, unless they just coincidentally happen to both be going .25c (if the relative total difference is .5c).
2. Given the dictates of SR, whichever one is going faster than the other will be younger (for the time in which he is going faster, at least).
It's just that simple, and it doesn't depend on a "point of view" in the context of SR.....
I don't have to know which one is going faster to know that one is (if their speeds aren't equal). The fact that both may see it differently is irrelevant (again, SR makes this clear, for time dilation purposes). Both may "think" that the other is younger, but at least one of them is simply wrong. If they are moving at equal rates of speed, relative to each other, then they are BOTH wrong (because neither is younger than the other). None of these conditional conclusions compels me to adopt a particular frame of reference, and none depend on knowing either of the following:
3. Their "absolute" speeds, vis-a-vis motionless "space," or
4. Which one really is going faster than the other (relative to each other)."
I have numbered 3 and 4 above (they were originally also 1 and 2).
To what extent, if any, do you disagree with 1, 2, 3, and/or 4?
Does the contrast between accelerated vs inertial states simply boil down to one, and only one question, then?: Whether or not a object is "moving?"
I would not describe it that way. An inertial state is one where, if you hold a cup still, with nothing touching it, and then let it go, it doesn't move relative to you.
I can't find a single line of consistency in your various statements, assumptions, and claims throughout this thread. I suspect you don't even think twice about whether some reponse you are giving now is the least bit consistent with the one you gave a while back, because that is irrelevant.
There have been a coupe of different notion of acceleration in play, and a lot of that is my fault. I apologize for any earlier inacuracies. I only discuss this stuff every 5-10 years or so.
Resistance to gravity, such as sitting in a chair, is empirically identical to being under acceleration. In either case, when you let the cup go, it will move (relative to you) in a specific direction.
If at any point along the way you understood me to be saying that K' was analyzable in pure SR, you misunderstood. I'm not that rusty.
You haven't said anyting about Pat/Chris since I laid out the description of the various future events. I look forward to your comments on that.
One Brow said: "I would not describe it that way. An inertial state is one where, if you hold a cup still, with nothing touching it, and then let it go, it doesn't move relative to you."
I take it then, that you are willing to concede the inaccuracy of your recent claim that clock U2 is not accelerated in the K' frame of reference. If "he" let go of it's cup of tea, it would fly away from him, right?
One Brow said: "You haven't said anyting about Pat/Chris since I laid out the description of the various future events. I look forward to your comments on that."
I'm not sure what particular post you are referring to, but I have repeatedly (likes 50 times) responded to the "point" you are trying to make (which point confuses epistemology with ontology).
Over and over I have made it clear that my statements were merely CONDITIONAL and I was trying to pin-point the predictions of SR, NOT make a claim about "reality." Let me try to illustrate one more time.
Me: If, in the year 2015, the earth and jupiter collide at the relative speed of .99c, then the earth will be pulverized all life as we know it, in fact the planet itself, will cease to exist. Do you agree?"
You: case 1. No, I can't agree to that. It's not even the year 2015 yet, so we don't know if it will even happen. Therefore, there is just no way to know if that's true.
You: case 2: We have no reason to know or believe that the earth will ever collide with jupiter, so, no, I cannot agree.
What's wrong with your answer in Case 1? In case 2?
Had you simply said, 600 posts ago: "Yeah, I agree that's the resulf IF, that happened, but I don't think its gunna happen and I don't think there's any reason to believe it will happen," then fine, we could have gone right ahead with any issues of the likelihood of it happening.
But you can't do that, because your are intent on indoctrinating me with your preferred ontology, and nothing else. So rather than answer a simply hypothetical question, you tell me for weeks that the question makes no sense, etc. It gets extremely frustrating, and I really start to seriously question your good faith.
Only someone with (1) understanding (2) a concern for logical consistency, and (3) the ability to spot logical inconsistency would ever perceive a contradiction or "paradox." Take two kids I have taught the basic so numbers, addition, subtraction, etc. I present them both with these 3 questions.
1. You can see that 4 + 6 = 10, right? Both: "Yes"
2. You can see that 2 + 8 also = 10, right? Both: "Yes."
3. And you can see that 7 + 5 = 10, right?
Kid 1: Yes. Follow up for kid 1: and you can see that 20 + 20 = 10 , right? Kid 1: Yes.
Kid 2: No, that doesn't make sense. Either I misunderstood what you told me earlier about numbers or else you are now contradicting your own assumptions and definitions.
If your sense of what is "right" consists merely of agreeing with authorities who "know" the right answer, then Kid 1 is right.
If you draw your sense of what is "right" from your own efforts to understand, analyze, and reflect upon what you are told, then Kid 2 is right.
Suppose I say that 6 + 6 + 6 = 18.
Now this relationship also implies that 6 = 18/3 and that 18 = 3 x 6.
All are "equally valid" ways of looking at the relationship between 3 sixes and the number 18.
If I insist that you answer this relationship in terms of addition, you will give me the first answer.
If I insist that you answer this relationship in terms of division you will give me the second answer. If I insist that you answer this relationship in terms of multiplication, you will give me the third answer.
These are all truly relational truths and/or "relative" viewpoints. It would be non-relativistic to say that ONLY the division answer is correct, and that 6 can ONLY be defined as 18/3 or 12/2, etc.
If speed = distance/time, then distance can be defined by its relationship to speed and time (d = s/t) and time can be defined by it's relationship to speed and distance (t=speed x distance). Big whoop, eh?
1. Should speed be considered as a derivative and secondary concept, and defined as being composed the "more fundamental" concepts of time and distance, or
2. Should distance be considered as a derivative and secondary concept, and defined as being composed the "more fundamental" concepts of time and speed, or
3. Should time be considered as a derivative and secondary concept, and defined as being composed the "more fundamental" concepts of distance and speed, or
4. Should none be considered in any way primary so that none can ever be viewed as "more fundamental," but only defined in terms of the other 2?
Whatever you answer to these questions, s still = d/t; d still = s/t; and t still = s x d. Classical mechanics say speed is derivative and secondary. Relativity says speed is not only fundamental but also absolute and that therefore BOTH of the other elements (time and distance) are strictly secondary and must constantly vary to conform to the a priori answer about speed.
Normally you must know at least 2 of 3 (s, t, & d) to arrive at any answer at all. Given that you know that, the other follows. If you already know 1 (by postulate) then you only need to know 1 other, which seems kinda strange (strange that you should already know 1, a priori, I mean).
But, whatever you choose to call "primary," you're still gunna get the same answer. Relativity is itself relative, in this sense. It is not, and cannot be seen to be, "absolutely true," by any objective standard. The math will always work out the same (like whooda thunk?).
I said: "The math will always work out the same (like whooda thunk?)."
Put another way, every experiment that "confirms" SR also "confirms" LR.
I could arbitrarily make distance both primary and absolute. I could say, for example, that the distance between any 2 points, whether it be from my trailer to the one next-door or from earth to the most distant galaxy is ALWAYS 10 miles. This would make zero sense, empirically and intuitively, but I have no doubt that you could make it all work out fine mathematically by simply adjusting time and/or speed accordingly.
Why? Because the time, distance, speed relationship is truly relational and relativistic. If, by making the speed of light both fundamental and absolute, I can make distance shrink instanteously by 10 million light years as a mathematical matter, I could just as easily turn 1 hour into 5 centuries to keep the "absolute distance" constant, or turn the speed of 186,000 mps into 20 gazillion mps if that's what it took to keep the absolute distance constant.
And all of this mathematical manipulation would tell me what about "reality," exactly?
One Brow said: "Now, if you are talking about notion like 'who is really moving', these notions are truly absent from relativity. You can use other principles of physics to discuss, but they will not change the answers you get from relativity."
I agree that relativity eschews the notion of absolute motion in it's empirical and mathematical assumptions. But one must distinguish the philsophical claims of relativists (whatever they are, and however they may vary from individual to individual) from their empirical and mathematical claims. Their philosophical claims are totally irrelevant to the mathematical "solutions" SR might dictate.
A long while back, near the top of this page, I addressed this distinction in paragraphs numbered 8, 9, & 10, beginning with:
"8. In relatively theory, real motion exists, even if we cannot empirically detect it in such a way as to call it "absolute" motion. Saying that we cannot detect absolute motion is NOT to say there is no "real" motion.
9. Furthermore relatively does not even purport to claim, as some believe, that this is no "absolute" motion, as an ontological matter...."
As is typical, you never addressed a word of response to these claims and comments, as I recall. Do you disagree with anything (of substance) I said in those posts?
1. Unless motion is merely illusory, then either P or C is really moving, if not both. Relative to Chris, Pat may be going 0, while Chris is going .5c, Pat may be going .1c, while Chris is going .4c, etc. We don't know which one is going faster, relative to the other, but we know one is, unless they just coincidentally happen to both be going .25c (if the relative total difference is .5c).
It is impossible for one to be going "faster, relative to the other" unless you bring in a third frame to compare them both to. The choice of that third frame is arbitrary. Either, or neither, could be going faster depending upon that third frame you choose.
I am assuming you don't simply mean that Pat could see Chris moving at .4c while Chirs sees Pat moving at .1c. If there relative difference in speed is .5c, each sees the other moving at .5c. I will be keeping the responses to most of the rest of what you say on hold until I am sure we at least understand each other on that issue.
I take it then, that you are willing to concede the inaccuracy of your recent claim that clock U2 is not accelerated in the K' frame of reference. If "he" let go of it's cup of tea, it would fly away from him, right?
Possibly. I may have confused the clocks earlier. I just reread the article, which refers to U2 as the shipboard clock. Regardless of whether you adopt coordinate system K or K', the environment of the shipboard clock is not inertial.
One Brow said: "You haven't said anyting about Pat/Chris since I laid out the description of the various future events. I look forward to your comments on that."
I'm not sure what particular post you are referring to, but I have repeatedly (likes 50 times) responded to the "point" you are trying to make (which point confuses epistemology with ontology).
Pat and Chris are moving away from each other at relative speed v, and have been since they were born.
Future event one: Pat undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Pat's speed so that Pat is now approaching Chris at speed v. Chris undergoes no acceleration. When Pat catches Chris, Pat will be younger than Chris by amount y. y will be larger than the amount that can be attributed to the post-acceleration leg of Pat's journey.
Future event two: Chris undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Chris' speed so that Chris is now approaching Pat at speed v. Pat undergoes no acceleration. When Chris catches Pat, Chris will be younger than Pat by amount y. y will be larger than the amount that can be attributed to the post-acceleration leg of Chris' journey.
Yes, y will always be the exact same in future event one and in future event two.
Future event three: Pat and Chris undergo identical acceleration, so they are now approaching each other at relative speed v. They will be the same age when they meet.
Do you think any of this is incorrect? Why?
One Brow saidL "It is impossible for one to be going "faster, relative to the other" unless you bring in a third frame to compare them both to.
Quiz question: Two clocks are moving relative to each other. Which, if any, of the following statements are true?
A. The clocks run at different rates, or, if you prefer, the TIME is different (holds for every reference to "rates")
B. The clocks run at the same rate
C. It cannot be known if they run at the same or different rates.
D. None of the above
E. All of the above?
One Brow said: "It is impossible for one to be going "faster, relative to the other" unless you bring in a third frame to compare them both to."
Why would that be impossible?
One Brow said: "Possibly. I may have confused the clocks earlier"
It's not whether you made a mistake, per se, that matters here. The question is about whether Einstien is truly comparing apples to apples, or just trying to give the appearance that he is.
In his example, do you agree that:
1. In frame K, clock U1 is inertial AT ALL TIMES?
2. In frame K', neither clock is inertial AT ALL TIMES?
One Brow said: "Do you think any of this is incorrect? Why?"
I see where it could be correct, but I don't see why it would necessarily be correct. Nor do I see how, even if it is true, it is relevant to the question as I asked it. It's just another way of changing the question, and thereby perhaps changing the answer.
Remember the question I asked about the car which went 30 mph uphill? Who says one will ever catch the other?
One Brow said: "Pat and Chris are moving away from each other at relative speed v, and have been since they were born."
Let's make some assumptions here and put some numbers in. Let's say that in your example "speed v" is in fact c. OK, now:
One Brow said: "Future event one: Pat undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Pat's speed so that Pat is now approaching Chris at speed v. Chris undergoes no acceleration. When Pat catches Chris..."
When?
Let's take the frame of reference that, at the beginning Pat was at rest, which means Chris was travelling at c.
Now, even if "Pat undergoes near-instant acceleration that changes Pat's speed so that Pat is now approaching Chris at speed v. Chris undergoes no acceleration" Pat cannot ever catch Chris, if you assume that the "speed v" in the new event cannot exceed c.
If you care to assume a rest frame for one or the other, ab initio, then put some figures for v, amount of time passing (in the rest frame) before acceleration, etc., in your examples, and then show mathematically how your claims would work out, then I will look at them.
The whole "when P catches C" portion builds in certain assumptions, and definitely changes the question.
Asumme when they passed, Pat was at rest and Chris going .99c. That state of affairs lasts 20 years, so now they are almost 20 light years apart. At that point, they each think the other is substantially younger, but, if SR is right, at that point, Chris is quite a bit younger than Pat. What happens after they changed speeds cannot change that simple "fact." How long it would then take Pat to "catch up" to Chris if Pat suddenly started approaching Chris at .999c (relative to her previous rest frame) is something I aint even gunna bother to try and calculate. It would be a good long-ass while, though, I spect.
I am on a quiz show. Behind a curtain is are two people A (who, unbeknownst to me is Andre Kirilenko) and B (who, unbeknownst to me, is Brevin Knight). I get to ask one question how their respective heights so I ask "Are they the same height," and am told "no, they are not."
Question 1: Which one is tall? My answer, you couldn't say that either of them is "tall" without a standard. Maybe they are both tall by some standard, maybe they are both short.
Question 2: Is one taller than the other? My answer: Yes, unequivocally so, unless you're lying.
Question 3: Which one is taller? My answer: I couldn't possibly tell you that, based on the information I have. I can only tell you that one is taller, not which one.
See my point? Somehow, I doubt it.
Suppose they never let me look behind the curtain. Would that make it "impossible" for A to be taller than B? If not, would A be taller than B, even if I thought B was taller than A, for whatever (insufficient) reason?
Quiz number 2:
Two objects S (sun) and E (earth) "appear" to be moving relative to each other. Which, if any, of the following statements is/are true?
1. At least one is really moving
2. Neither is really moving
3. It cannot be known if either 1 or 2 is correct.
4. All of the above
5. None of the above.
One Brow said: "It is impossible for one to be going "faster, relative to the other" unless you bring in a third frame to compare them both to."
In the wiki example, all parties agreed that one twin would age by 10.28 years, and the other by only 5.14 years. It was also agreed that one was "going faster" than the other. Is this impossible? In that example, if, after blasting off and travelling for only 1 year, would it be "impossible" for the ship twin to be going faster at that time and for that year?
"One of the fundamental results of Albert Einstein's special theory of relativity is a phenomenon known as time dilation. Simply put, this result states that time moves more slowly for a moving object than it does for an object at rest."
http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_twin_paradox#ixzz0amGd0GVD
The foregoing claim only talks about two objects. Is this claim impossible?
I throw a baseball as hard as I can. Is it impossible for the ball to be going faster than me?
Suppose I make a somewhat different claim, i.e.:
If two objects are moving relative to each other, and if one is going faster, then one will be going faster.
Is that claim impossible to make?
Suppose I see a giant next to a pygmy and I think that one is taller than the other. Is that impossible?
Suppose the pygmy is standing up and the giant is lying down. I therefore think the pygmy is taller. Is it impossible for me to think that? It is impossible for me to be right? Is it impossible for me to be wrong? Is it impossible for one to ever be taller than the other, unless maybe we bring in a 3rd person to compare them both to?
Take just two objects, S (sun) and E (earth) which are moving with respect to each other.
Is it impossible for the earth to be moving faster than the sun?
Is it equally impossible for the sun to be moving faster than the earth?
Suppose we put a clock in a space station orbiting earth at a relative altitude and orbital speed such that:
1. According to GR, the space clock would run 10 minutes a day faster than the clock on earth due to gravitation contraction, and
2. According to SR, the space clock would run 2 minutes a day slower than the clock on earth due to a faster speed dilation.
Suppose after 1000 days of this, a space shuttle retrieves the space clock and brings it back to compare it to an earth clock it was synchronized with (no adjustments made). Would the space clock "really" have recorded 8000 minutes more time?
Suppose the space shuttle had taken the earth clock up to the space station instead. Would the earth clock now be the one which recorded 8000 minutes more time? I mean, after all, it was just "arbitrary" to assume the space ship was at a higher altitude and speed, right? Neither one was ever "really" faster or slower than the other. One runs faster than the other, if, and only if, some guy typing on an internet blog personally designates one of them to be the "preferred" frame of reference. If he changes his mind every 10 seconds, then the clocks reverse their readings every 10 seconds, eh?
Since I'm trying to focus on time dilation due to speed, just take the above question and pretend the space clock was adjusted prior to delivery to offset the 10 minute per day gravitational effect, leaving a difference of 2000 minutes only. If the earth clock was taken up to the space shuttle, would it, just before entering the space station, subtract 4000 minutes from its (earth) readings so that it would conform to the time perceptions of the space clock, which considered it to be running slower all along, rather than vice versa?
One Brow said: "Pat and Chris are moving away from each other at relative speed v, and have been since they were born....Future event three: Pat and Chris undergo identical acceleration, so they are now approaching each other at relative speed v. They will be the same age when they meet."
It would have to be an extremely rare co-incidence for this to be true. They would age the same amount after the commencement of "future event three," but that could in no way retroactively change the prior age difference (if any).
Take the wiki example. Assume that at the time the space twin begin it's turn-around, the earth accelerated to meet it half-way home. The space twin will be younger, not the same age.
One Brow said: "The choice of that third frame is arbitrary. Either, or neither, could be going faster depending upon that third frame you choose."
Suppose I am looking at the heads side of a coin. Suppose you are looking at the tails side of the same coin. Suppose someone is going to arbitrarily choose one of us to ask what they see. Therefore the answer they are ultimately given will depend on who they choose to ask. Suppose they choose to ask you and you say "tails."
1. Does that mean it is impossible for me to see heads?
2. Does that mean you weren't seeing tails until someone chose to ask you what you saw?
3. Does that mean that, prior to being asked, both of us saw both heads and tails?
4. Does that mean neither of us saw anything, until you were asked?
Look at the same situtation from the viewpoint of a "third frame," i.e., the questioner.
1. Does the fact that the questioner has not yet decided who he is going to ask gunna change the answer he gets, once he does ask?
2. Does the fact that, even once he decides he's gunna ask you, he still doesn't know what you're gunna say, gunna change he answer he gets?
3. Once he does ask, and you say "tails," does that mean, because he "could have" decided to ask me, and, if he had decided to ask me I would have said "heads," invalidate the answer you gave him?
4. In short, does the fact that he doesn't know, in advance, what answer he will get mean that it is impossible for you to see tails and me to see heads? Does that mean. Does it mean there aren't two sides to the coin?
In the P and C situtation, if I will ask C who is going faster, he will say P. If I ask P the same question he will say C. Does the fact that each will give me a different answer make it IMPOSSIBLE for one of them to be wrong?
Does that make it logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE for one of them to "really" be moving faster than the other?
Suppose it was later discovered that, 6 years ago, P was accelerated, from a planet at rest relative to C, to the speed of .5c. Suppose we take that (the forceful acceleration) as sufficient evidence that P is "really" moving faster than C at the times their paths cross. Was P not really going faster UNTIL we found out the source and extent of his acceleraton from the other planet? Would it be impossible for him to be going faster until that was known?
Suppose I have a $10 bill in my front pocket. Suppose I have a $20 bill in my back pocket. Suppose that I have an irrational compulsion to contintually switch the bills from one pocket to the other, first putting the $10 in my back pocket and the $20 in my front pocket, then reversing that order. Suppose I do it so often nobody, even me, knows which bill is in one pocket at any given time.
Does that make it impossible for one pocket to have more money in it than the other? Does it make it impossible for me to KNOW that one pocket has more in it than the other? Does the fact that if I place the bills in my pockets in such a way that the denomination is showing, does the fact that a guy in front of me sees a $10 bill and the guy in back of me sees a $20 bill make it IMPOSSIBLE for one pocket to have more money in it than the other?
I have overdone the questioning, but only because you keep asserting "impossibilities" based on equating epistemology with ontology. Assuming that we can't know if there is a God, does would that mean that it is impossible for there to be one? Does the fact that we DON"T KNOW which of two objects have been the beneficiary of more forceful accumulated accelerations, and/or less events which slowed it down, in the past mean that neither possibily could have more? If they are moving at different speeds, wouldn't we have to actually assume that one did in fact get accelerated more/decelerated less in the past than the other rather than conclude that it was "impossible" for one of them to have been accelerated more?
Does the fact that east can be on my right while it is simultaneously on your left mean there is no such direction as east?
I repeat:
I am assuming you don't simply mean that Pat could see Chris moving at .4c while Chirs sees Pat moving at .1c. If there relative difference in speed is .5c, each sees the other moving at .5c. I will be keeping the responses to most of the rest of what you say on hold until I am sure we at least understand each other on that issue.
You keep equating the notion of length to that of speed. You have already acknowleged that all speed is relative, you can only be moving in comparison to something else. Length is not relative. You can't rescue that by going to an adjective version of length, because speed has it's own adjective (fast).
Assuming the clocks would be running at the same rate in the same inertial environment, they run at the same rate in different inertial environments, to the extent that question has an answer at all.
One Brow said: "It is impossible for one to be going "faster, relative to the other" unless you bring in a third frame to compare them both to."
Why would that be impossible?
Because you have already made a comparison between them by saying their is motion at all, and you can't go back to that well for a second comparison.
In his example, do you agree that:
1. In frame K, clock U1 is inertial AT ALL TIMES?
2. In frame K', neither clock is inertial AT ALL TIMES?
In both frames K and K', clock U1 is inertial at all times.
Let's make some assumptions here and put some numbers in. Let's say that in your example "speed v" is in fact c.
If v=c, Pat and Chris can not both be objects with mass, at one must be a photon. None of the discussion makes much sense when one object is a photon.
Lets say the initial relative speed is .6c, and that Pat and Chris are born in close spatial proximity at that relative speed. Both environments continue to be inertial for what they experience as eight days.
Scenario 1) Pat accelerates so that Pat and Chris are approaching each other at .6c. They continue in this state for ten days, when they are in close proximity. From Chris' point of view, Pat spends 8 days to Chris' ten while separating and 8 more days to Chris' ten when coming closer together. Pat will have aged 16 days, Chris has aged 20 days. From Pat's point of view, Pat spends eight days at rest watching Chris age 6.4, accelerates to .8087c compared to the previous rest frame, and then sees Chris age 13.6 days over the Pat's experienced 8 days after acceleration. Pat will have aged 16 days, Chris will have aged 20 days.
Scenario 2) Just switch the names, the result is the same.
Scenario 3) You can't calculate this from either point of view in SR, so I'll use the point of view PV that is exactly halfway between Pat and Chris at all times. This is an inertial reference frame. From the point of view of PV, Both Pat and Chris travel at .3c for 8.386 days traveling away from PV, then turn around and spend 8.386 days returning to PV. Each ages 16 days in what PV experiences as 16.772 days. From the point of view of Pat, Chris initially spends 6.4 days to Pat's 8 days, while 7.631 days pass at PV. Pat accelerates .4838c compared to his intial reference frame. For the next 1.6 days, Pat sees himself and Chris in the same rest frame, each aging 1.6 days, while Pat sees 1.828 days pass at PV. Then Pat sees Chris accelerate toward him by a total of .6c. Over the remaining 6.4 days, Pat sees Chris age 8 days while 7.132 pass at PV. Again, you can just switch the names to dicuss what Chris sees.
Now, as you requested, you have numbers. Care to comment on how you can say one is absolutely younger than the other before the acceleration events?
Asumme when they passed, Pat was at rest and Chris going .99c. That state of affairs lasts 20 years, so now they are almost 20 light years apart. ... How long it would then take Pat to "catch up" to Chris if Pat suddenly started approaching Chris at .999c (relative to her previous rest frame) is something I aint even gunna bother to try and calculate. It would be a good long-ass while, though, I spect.
If Pat accelerates to about .9975c compared to his rest frame, Pat will catch Chris in less than 20 years. Just thought you might find that interesting.
Quiz number 2:
Assuming the conservation of energy, the earth is moving.
In the wiki example, ... It was also agreed that one was "going faster" than the other.
The wiki example never says that one twin is going faster than the other twin.
The foregoing claim only talks about two objects.
It is stated very poorly.
I throw a baseball as hard as I can. Is it impossible for the ball to be going faster than me?
Compared to the ground (yes), or compared to the bullet shot from a gun in the same direction (no)? From the bullet's point of view, you are moving faster than the baseball.
If you want me to keep answwering these questions, you need to answer this one: If you have two objects X and Y moving at relative speed v to each other, X sees Y moving at v, and Y sees X moving at v. So, how can one be "faster" compared to the other? Give an example that does not use a third reference frame, or just acknowledge you need a third reference frame. If you come back with a "taller" scenario or a "coin" scenario, this will not be an answer.
If he changes his mind every 10 seconds, then the clocks reverse their readings every 10 seconds, eh?
No, nor has anything I have said been the equivalent of saying that.
It would have to be an extremely rare co-incidence for this to be true. They would age the same amount after the commencement of "future event three," but that could in no way retroactively change the prior age difference (if any).
To the extent you can discuss a prior age difference at all, there would be none.
Take the wiki example. Assume that at the time the space twin begin it's turn-around, the earth accelerated to meet it half-way home. The space twin will be younger, not the same age.
Yes, because the change in the inertia of the space twin would have been larger.
Suppose I am looking at the heads side of a coin.
Speed is inherently relative, the side of a coin is not.
In the P and C situtation, if I will ask C who is going faster, he will say P. If I ask P the same question he will say C. Does the fact that each will give me a different answer make it IMPOSSIBLE for one of them to be wrong?
Does that make it logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE for one of them to "really" be moving faster than the other?
That particular fact? No. If it is not impossible for that reason, does that make it possible, or canit be impossible for other, more fundamental reasons.
Suppose it was later discovered that, 6 years ago, P was accelerated, from a planet at rest relative to C, to the speed of .5c.
Changing the scenario allows you to get different answers, certainly.
Suppose I have a $10 bill in my front pocket. Suppose I have a $20 bill in my back pocket.
The denomination on a bill is not inherently relative.
I have overdone the questioning, but only because you keep asserting "impossibilities" based on equating epistemology with ontology.
Keep repeating that if it brings you comfort.
Does the fact that east can be on my right while it is simultaneously on your left mean there is no such direction as east?
The direction "east" is not inherently relative.
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